60 replies to this topic

[CarvinMarvin]

TitusTanker, on 13 March 2016 - 07:35 PM, said:

-2/+2 is ok but need fair tier on both side

e.g. 88999XX vs 88999XX 

it's not good now sometime 78899XX vs 8999XXX .... etc.

If a tier 7 platoons with a tier 8 without premium MM then it has to be prepared for a tier 10 game. And that will just increase the chances their side will be on the -Ve side of any variance. I will also point out that tier 10 games can have up to three tiers difference and still fall within the 5% variance. An awful lot of the ones I see recently where people are saying OMG this is so bad are at worst 2 tier differences, and therefore well within the variance limit.

[Claymaker]

sometimes i'm being the only tier 8 in tier 10 games and the whole team angry at me, it's not even my fault

[Mehliveat]

Claymaker, on 13 March 2016 - 08:46 PM, said:

sometimes i'm being the only tier 8 in tier 10 games and the whole team angry at me, it's not even my fault

 

I love those type of MM when I am in a medium.  Its a perfect opportunity for Nicols.  (Or Halonans in a TD, or Orliks in a light, but I still reckon Nicols is the most valuable)

[Glitterflirt]

CarvinMarvin, on 13 March 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

If a tier 7 platoons with a tier 8 without premium MM then it has to be prepared for a tier 10 game. And that will just increase the chances their side will be on the -Ve side of any variance. I will also point out that tier 10 games can have up to three tiers difference and still fall within the 5% variance. An awful lot of the ones I see recently where people are saying OMG this is so bad are at worst 2 tier differences, and therefore well within the variance limit.

 

Just saying, why not scrap the variance rule and just make the tiers on both the teams same? These I've recorded,  xx99998 vs xxx9998....9988777 vs 9988877....9998887 vs 9999888....8877766 vs 8887766....8888776 vs 8887776. I wish i be on the side with the highest number of high tiers and not low tier. That doesn't happen always.

[MSixteen]

I normally play on the NA server, have over 11k battles there and over a 72% WR. Here is my opinion on the +1/-1 MM.

 

It greatly improved the mid tiers (5-8). By that I mean it turned those tiers into easy mode. I had no difficulty having 30+ win streaks in tanks like the SU-100Y 100% solo, because it was ridiculously easy to seal club the low tier tanks when you don't ever have to fire normal AP, because the 530 alpha damage AP with "only" 170ish penetration was plenty to go through any tank that it ever saw. The same thing happened with tanks like the T29, KV-3, KV-2 (my god the KV-2 was OP), SU-152, KV-4, T34, etc. They became instantly OP, because the +2 tanks that kept them in check so they don't just go around roflstomping everything they see were no longer there. Tiers 5 and 6 are the only tiers that really benefitted from the +1/-1 MM, because they were no longer being shafted with +2/-1 mm. The tiers 5 and 6 not being shafted anymore, along with there being so many extremely OP tanks under +1/-1 mm made the mid tiers incredibly easy. Potatoes were still making the same stupid mistakes that potatoes always do, but there weren't any tanks that were higher tiers there to keep them honest, and punish them when they made a dumb move. This degraded the gameplay to the point that tanks at all tiers would just roll forward until they saw the enemy, and just sit there and fire. More often than not, they would trade shots in the open, because there weren't any tanks to keep them in check if they were in the seal clubbing tanks. 

 

Now the higher tiers, however (9-10) were hit hard with the +1/-1 MM. Again, People were making the same stupid mistakes that people will do because most of the playerbase doesn't really care if they're any good or not. But in the higher tiers, because there are more T9s and T10s in the matches (because they cannot see T7 and 8 respectively), they were getting punished more for their mistakes, and they still would never learn. They would still roll around a corner sideways on when 3-4 enemies were aiming at them, just to maybe put a shell into an enemy tank. I had a game in my Leopard 1, where 2 of my T10 allies were dead 50 seconds into the match, and to make it worse, not a single enemy had been spotted yet. In a T10 game, under +1/-1 mm, every tank had to pull his/her weight in order to have a chance at a win. It was a 50/50 coin toss on whether or not you were gonna win. I had matches where myself and another SU platoon mate happened to get on the same team as another good player (around 60% or so) and we still managed to lose, because despite doing around 2-3k damage each, the rest of our team did what they always do (i.e. drive forward. see enemy. drive into open. die), but they were doing it at an even faster rate than normal. I would often find myself in a 1v6 2 and a half minutes into the game, not knowing wth happened to my team.

 

Now on the issue of premium tanks. Tanks like the T34, Lowe, SU-100Y (premium tanks w/o premium MM) would get an instant buff, because they had guns that were easily capable of dealing with tanks that were 2 tiers above them, because that's how they were balanced, so those tanks excelled in the +1/-1 (The IS-3D was also a monster in the +1/-1, 2400 DPM during the first minute of an engagement at T8 is crazy). However, tanks like the IS-6, AT 15A and P/M10 (premium tanks with premium mm) got an instant nerf. They were no longer seeing 1/4 tanks -2, 1/4 tanks -1, 1/4 tanks equal tier, and 1/4 tanks +1 (the tanks that they would struggle against). Now they (obviously) saw 1/3 -1, 1/3 equal and 1/3 +1 (again, the tanks they struggled against). The credit earning potential of these tanks was nerfed, because they would be forced to fire more APCR at the tanks that are +1, because their guns can barely handle them. An IS-6 would see nearly 10% more E75s, T95s, ST-1s, M103s etc, and be forced to sling more and more APCR because of them. Nevermind the fact that every single one of those tanks also doesn't have any problem at all penetrating the IS-6, which is actually another huge nerf to it, but the IS-6 would be forced to shoot APCR even while aiming at weakspots much more often, and the credit earning of those tanks, well... tanked.

 

The rational players on the NA server (not the ones who think +1/-1 is 100% better, or the ones that think +2/-2 is 100% better) think that there should just be a different tier getting shafted other than T5 and T6.

The mm should be

1-7 +1/-1

8 +2/-1

9 +1/-1

10 +0/-2

that way, only 1 tier is getting the short end of the stick (T8), The premium MM tanks can keep being special, and T10 isn't so much of a coin toss where even 3 SUs would lose to a team of 50%ers because we would get 4 people potatoing out instantly.

 

The arguments for +1/-1 have devolved into an "I play the mid tiers more, and so do the majority of the players, so we don't care if T10 sucks. We want +1/-1" and "T10 is the tier that I play the most, and it's the end game so it's the only one that really matters, so we don't care if the seal clubbing tiers suck. We want +2/-2"

[MSixteen]

RazorOmegaOne, on 11 March 2016 - 04:20 AM, said:

I guess it's obviously that experienced players prefer +2/-2 while inexperienced players prefer +1/-1.

Now it's just which group of players WG prefer catering for.

 

This is actually 100% accurate. 

Every single one of the better players prefer +2/-2, while the poorer players cry for the +1/-1 to return so they can have an easier time. They don't like the challenge of being +2, because they don't see it for what it is: an opportunity to think to get better.

 Being -2 means you either A.) Face the enemy head on and die miserably because you're not doing right, or B.) Actually use your brain, and get to the sides/rear of your opponents like you're supposed to, and succeed. They don't want to have to think.

[CarvinMarvin]

MSixteen, on 18 March 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

I normally play on the NA server, have over 11k battles there and over a 72% WR. Here is my opinion on the +1/-1 MM.

 

It greatly improved the mid tiers (5-8). By that I mean it turned those tiers into easy mode. I had no difficulty having 30+ win streaks in tanks like the SU-100Y 100% solo, because it was ridiculously easy to seal club the low tier tanks when you don't ever have to fire normal AP, because the 530 alpha damage AP with "only" 170ish penetration was plenty to go through any tank that it ever saw. The same thing happened with tanks like the T29, KV-3, KV-2 (my god the KV-2 was OP), SU-152, KV-4, T34, etc. They became instantly OP, because the +2 tanks that kept them in check so they don't just go around roflstomping everything they see were no longer there. Tiers 5 and 6 are the only tiers that really benefitted from the +1/-1 MM, because they were no longer being shafted with +2/-1 mm. The tiers 5 and 6 not being shafted anymore, along with there being so many extremely OP tanks under +1/-1 mm made the mid tiers incredibly easy. Potatoes were still making the same stupid mistakes that potatoes always do, but there weren't any tanks that were higher tiers there to keep them honest, and punish them when they made a dumb move. This degraded the gameplay to the point that tanks at all tiers would just roll forward until they saw the enemy, and just sit there and fire. More often than not, they would trade shots in the open, because there weren't any tanks to keep them in check if they were in the seal clubbing tanks. 

 

Now the higher tiers, however (9-10) were hit hard with the +1/-1 MM. Again, People were making the same stupid mistakes that people will do because most of the playerbase doesn't really care if they're any good or not. But in the higher tiers, because there are more T9s and T10s in the matches (because they cannot see T7 and 8 respectively), they were getting punished more for their mistakes, and they still would never learn. They would still roll around a corner sideways on when 3-4 enemies were aiming at them, just to maybe put a shell into an enemy tank. I had a game in my Leopard 1, where 2 of my T10 allies were dead 50 seconds into the match, and to make it worse, not a single enemy had been spotted yet. In a T10 game, under +1/-1 mm, every tank had to pull his/her weight in order to have a chance at a win. It was a 50/50 coin toss on whether or not you were gonna win. I had matches where myself and another SU platoon mate happened to get on the same team as another good player (around 60% or so) and we still managed to lose, because despite doing around 2-3k damage each, the rest of our team did what they always do (i.e. drive forward. see enemy. drive into open. die), but they were doing it at an even faster rate than normal. I would often find myself in a 1v6 2 and a half minutes into the game, not knowing wth happened to my team.

 

Now on the issue of premium tanks. Tanks like the T34, Lowe, SU-100Y (premium tanks w/o premium MM) would get an instant buff, because they had guns that were easily capable of dealing with tanks that were 2 tiers above them, because that's how they were balanced, so those tanks excelled in the +1/-1 (The IS-3D was also a monster in the +1/-1, 2400 DPM during the first minute of an engagement at T8 is crazy). However, tanks like the IS-6, AT 15A and P/M10 (premium tanks with premium mm) got an instant nerf. They were no longer seeing 1/4 tanks -2, 1/4 tanks -1, 1/4 tanks equal tier, and 1/4 tanks +1 (the tanks that they would struggle against). Now they (obviously) saw 1/3 -1, 1/3 equal and 1/3 +1 (again, the tanks they struggled against). The credit earning potential of these tanks was nerfed, because they would be forced to fire more APCR at the tanks that are +1, because their guns can barely handle them. An IS-6 would see nearly 10% more E75s, T95s, ST-1s, M103s etc, and be forced to sling more and more APCR because of them. Nevermind the fact that every single one of those tanks also doesn't have any problem at all penetrating the IS-6, which is actually another huge nerf to it, but the IS-6 would be forced to shoot APCR even while aiming at weakspots much more often, and the credit earning of those tanks, well... tanked.

 

The rational players on the NA server (not the ones who think +1/-1 is 100% better, or the ones that think +2/-2 is 100% better) think that there should just be a different tier getting shafted other than T5 and T6.

The mm should be

1-7 +1/-1

8 +2/-1

9 +1/-1

10 +0/-2

that way, only 1 tier is getting the short end of the stick (T8), The premium MM tanks can keep being special, and T10 isn't so much of a coin toss where even 3 SUs would lose to a team of 50%ers because we would get 4 people potatoing out instantly.

 

The arguments for +1/-1 have devolved into an "I play the mid tiers more, and so do the majority of the players, so we don't care if T10 sucks. We want +1/-1" and "T10 is the tier that I play the most, and it's the end game so it's the only one that really matters, so we don't care if the seal clubbing tiers suck. We want +2/-2"

Isn't two of those pref MM tanks you mentioned getting caught by -1/+1 actually tier 7 tanks themselves, and would still be belted under this idea? 

 

To be honest I think the better idea would be to return to the earlier MM and go the other way by making tier 3 the lowest tier facing +2. The biggest gripe that seems to involve having to grind tanks while -2, and honestly for a new player tier 5 is going to hit them like a brick wall. Not only are they facing +2 tanks for the first time (baring platooning mistakes), but the XP required for modules starts to become more than the first few games of friendly MM new tanks get are going to provide. So they end up stock and -2. Make that being 3&4 as the stick tiers and you should be able to get a module or two done, and if you're lucky, or good, maybe even grinding to elite by the time you start facing those +2 tanks.

 

That would also help rebalance some of those brutally OP tanks that are in those tiers. Except for the IIJ there probably aren't any tier 3 or 4 premiums who doesn't already have pref mm whose gun is so bad that it would need to get it to face 5/6, and well when I started playing I think even tier 2 tanks faced +2. As a complete WoT novice, I survived those games as a noob.

[Cmdr_ButttFace]

+2/-2 gives me easy games, games where I struggle to stay alive, and everything in between. Great variety, fun and tears. And I never notice being -2 until the WG nerf bat hits me and suddenly 90% of my games are at -2 for an extended number of games. That's what needs to change not the +2/-2.

[The_Violator_]

Best to leave it as it is.

[anthonylei01]

Mehliveat, on 13 March 2016 - 08:37 AM, said:

 

Suggest that you go through the posts over there and see how much sense you can make out of it.  A couple days ago, there were probably a good 10-20 different MM threads on the front page of General.  It then resulted in at least 3-4 thread where people asking for calm.

 

E.g. one from today.

 

http://forum.wotblit...s-game/#topmost

 

 

As to your argument for 

 

 

In short, not being able to carry from -2.

 

Obviously, it hard to carry from tier -2.  That's why its a challenge, and that's why you need to explore different strategies and tactics, and hopefully adapt.  I am sure that my tier -2 WR is abysmally low, but it doesn't really matter, because those bottom tier games are not about wins, they are about challenges.

 

 

 

regardless on how good you are, when bottom tiered (-2), it is impossible to carry in most situation if your high tier don't carry their weight (meaning hit point trading with high tier tanks) , unless you are those top players who can manufacture situation to win. 

 

MSixteen, on 18 March 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

I normally play on the NA server, have over 11k battles there and over a 72% WR. Here is my opinion on the +1/-1 MM.

 

It greatly improved the mid tiers (5-8). By that I mean it turned those tiers into easy mode. I had no difficulty having 30+ win streaks in tanks like the SU-100Y 100% solo, because it was ridiculously easy to seal club the low tier tanks when you don't ever have to fire normal AP, because the 530 alpha damage AP with "only" 170ish penetration was plenty to go through any tank that it ever saw. The same thing happened with tanks like the T29, KV-3, KV-2 (my god the KV-2 was OP), SU-152, KV-4, T34, etc. They became instantly OP, because the +2 tanks that kept them in check so they don't just go around roflstomping everything they see were no longer there. Tiers 5 and 6 are the only tiers that really benefitted from the +1/-1 MM, because they were no longer being shafted with +2/-1 mm. The tiers 5 and 6 not being shafted anymore, along with there being so many extremely OP tanks under +1/-1 mm made the mid tiers incredibly easy. Potatoes were still making the same stupid mistakes that potatoes always do, but there weren't any tanks that were higher tiers there to keep them honest, and punish them when they made a dumb move. This degraded the gameplay to the point that tanks at all tiers would just roll forward until they saw the enemy, and just sit there and fire. More often than not, they would trade shots in the open, because there weren't any tanks to keep them in check if they were in the seal clubbing tanks. 

 

Now the higher tiers, however (9-10) were hit hard with the +1/-1 MM. Again, People were making the same stupid mistakes that people will do because most of the playerbase doesn't really care if they're any good or not. But in the higher tiers, because there are more T9s and T10s in the matches (because they cannot see T7 and 8 respectively), they were getting punished more for their mistakes, and they still would never learn. They would still roll around a corner sideways on when 3-4 enemies were aiming at them, just to maybe put a shell into an enemy tank. I had a game in my Leopard 1, where 2 of my T10 allies were dead 50 seconds into the match, and to make it worse, not a single enemy had been spotted yet. In a T10 game, under +1/-1 mm, every tank had to pull his/her weight in order to have a chance at a win. It was a 50/50 coin toss on whether or not you were gonna win. I had matches where myself and another SU platoon mate happened to get on the same team as another good player (around 60% or so) and we still managed to lose, because despite doing around 2-3k damage each, the rest of our team did what they always do (i.e. drive forward. see enemy. drive into open. die), but they were doing it at an even faster rate than normal. I would often find myself in a 1v6 2 and a half minutes into the game, not knowing wth happened to my team.

 

Now on the issue of premium tanks. Tanks like the T34, Lowe, SU-100Y (premium tanks w/o premium MM) would get an instant buff, because they had guns that were easily capable of dealing with tanks that were 2 tiers above them, because that's how they were balanced, so those tanks excelled in the +1/-1 (The IS-3D was also a monster in the +1/-1, 2400 DPM during the first minute of an engagement at T8 is crazy). However, tanks like the IS-6, AT 15A and P/M10 (premium tanks with premium mm) got an instant nerf. They were no longer seeing 1/4 tanks -2, 1/4 tanks -1, 1/4 tanks equal tier, and 1/4 tanks +1 (the tanks that they would struggle against). Now they (obviously) saw 1/3 -1, 1/3 equal and 1/3 +1 (again, the tanks they struggled against). The credit earning potential of these tanks was nerfed, because they would be forced to fire more APCR at the tanks that are +1, because their guns can barely handle them. An IS-6 would see nearly 10% more E75s, T95s, ST-1s, M103s etc, and be forced to sling more and more APCR because of them. Nevermind the fact that every single one of those tanks also doesn't have any problem at all penetrating the IS-6, which is actually another huge nerf to it, but the IS-6 would be forced to shoot APCR even while aiming at weakspots much more often, and the credit earning of those tanks, well... tanked.

 

The rational players on the NA server (not the ones who think +1/-1 is 100% better, or the ones that think +2/-2 is 100% better) think that there should just be a different tier getting shafted other than T5 and T6.

The mm should be

1-7 +1/-1

8 +2/-1

9 +1/-1

10 +0/-2

that way, only 1 tier is getting the short end of the stick (T8), The premium MM tanks can keep being special, and T10 isn't so much of a coin toss where even 3 SUs would lose to a team of 50%ers because we would get 4 people potatoing out instantly.

 

The arguments for +1/-1 have devolved into an "I play the mid tiers more, and so do the majority of the players, so we don't care if T10 sucks. We want +1/-1" and "T10 is the tier that I play the most, and it's the end game so it's the only one that really matters, so we don't care if the seal clubbing tiers suck. We want +2/-2"

 

yep, agree with the tank balance. The introduction of +1 / -1 MM  only generates more issues than it can potential solve. A lot of vehicles will need re-balancing and will bring back some tanks that I parked, e.g. T34 (too slow against LT and meeting tier 10 tanks are too much work)

[Mehliveat]

anthonylei01, on 19 March 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

regardless on how good you are, when bottom tiered (-2), it is impossible to carry in most situation if your high tier don't carry their weight (meaning hit point trading with high tier tanks) , unless you are those top players who can manufacture situation to win. 

 

I don't like the word impossible.  I much prefer hard or challenging.  Did more dmg in a tier 6 than 4 tier 8s combined, and only one of the 8 carried their own weight, and I only have a 58% WR.  Also, note that the # 3 on the green is also a 6, and #2 on the reds is a 6 as well.  Bunch of tier 6s dominating in a tier 8 game.

 

Edited by Mehliveat, 20 March 2016 - 01:43 PM.

[The_Violator_]

It's hard to carry if your bottom tier only if the enemy top tiers are good.

[Hypervial]

I feel like most of times meeting a +2 tier it's really too much, skill and ability hardly will fill that gap... And it just doesnt feel right to battle an is 3 with a shermann :/

[Meanist____]

I'm happy with the games current mm. After all it's a toss of the coin whether your top tier or bottom and I'm sure those who want the change don't whine when there at the top. And like others have mentioned some tanks will end up more op while others will suffer. You just have to play smarter when your at the bottom and think how best you can serve your team. I've had some great game at bottom tier   Which are more rewarding when your the underdog even picking up the odd mastery and I'm only an average skilled player.

[Camaaki]

Even though i've got tier 8 as my top tier presently, i don't ever find it difficult to play with tier 10's, also it gives an added bonus of more xp that to kill a tier 9, i don't find it relevant to bring in this match making system.

 

P.S. Don't know why i've been finding messed up matching making in the past few days, for eg. - a tier 9, 4 tier 8's and 2 7's on one side and 2 tier 9's, 2 tier 8's and one tier 7. Something i noticed along these lines, just lemme know the reason if you do guys have any [also, keep em' clean, original and perfectly correct]

[MojoJojojoojoo]

Hello WG I would like to add my thoughts to this debate.
I had an account on Blitz before and quit simply because +2 -2 was a joke.
I was spending money and getting no fun in return as MM was just not viable to play when 2 tiers down.
I saw something about a possible change to +1 -1 and as such created an account to follow this and see what the outcome is.
If +1 -1 is introduced I will return to regular play and spend more money.
Should +2 -2 remain I will continue playing other games as I have been and abandon Blitz again.
I would suggest that you lose many players after a short time due to the current MM.
Those I see on here complaining that the +1 -1 would ruin gameplay are biased as they are generally high tier players. This game needs to attract and keep players who may not have great skill but still want to try to be competitive, 2 tiers down is just a camp fest no one thinks they have a chance when they are 2 tiers down so they sit and do nothing.
+1 -1 is a positive way forward for Blitz and I hope it is introduced as soon as possible.
Thank you.

[Dangerous_when_Sober]

I am against.

 

My best vehicle, the IS6 loses its mojo. I paid for premium MM ffs.

 

But I am reassured that WG has listened to us. Hang on, the long term players seem to be against it.....we all learnt to cope. Yes it hurts when you are the low tier, but nothing better than annoying high tiers by not dying. A hard to hit shell magnet is good fun.

 

Overall it will just change which tanks I use. M4 will be better, comet too. As m16 said, KV2 will be a monster unleashed.

 

maybe Panther series wont be crap anymore? No, thats a step too far.

 

t34 and Is3 def just got better too.

 

 

 

 

[shoutaoh]

Fantastic changes. Thank you.

[Nordibek_Abdusattorov]

I dont really mind +/- 1 or 2 but what is concerning me is the number of the tanks of the same type and tier. I want a perfect x tier 6 vs x tier 6 and y tier 5 vs y tier 5. I dont like to see x+1 tier 6 vs x tier 6. Another thing is having unbalanced number of tank types. One team is filled with TD and the other is filled with mediums. Obviously the mediums will win. Im looking forward to this fix, not the +/-1 or +/-2 mm.

[4_russia]

Its not good as i keep meeting in my kv 4. 6tier 9 and 1 tier 8 n is hard to pen through them