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EMIL 1951, NOT P2W! :D


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P36C #1 Posted 09 October 2020 - 02:32 AM

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Hello commanders,


The release of the Swedish line is awesome imo, I'm quite enjoying them, and don't forget the Halloween event that'll come soon as well as the Christmas event in a few months where we'll get loads of free stuff :)

 

Anyway, the EMIL 1951 is yet to be released, and we don't know in what form it'll come out. However, it is never too early to look at the statistics. Comparing the EMIL 1951 to the techtree EMIL I, the EMIL 1951 has;

13mm more penetration (217 vs 230), less dispersion on turret traverse, 5km/h higher top speed, a touch higher raw and effective hp/t ratio. It has one degree less gun elevation however (15 vs 14). Everything else is the same. Well, yea just slightly better in quite a few regards, classic Tier VIII P2W? NOPE! 

 

Take a look at the armor model. Both have a pretty much impenetrable turret to most tanks, however the EMIL 1951 has 20mm less UFP armor, giving it an effective 210-220mm of armor compared to the EMIL I's effective 240-250mm. Many Tier VIII tanks have around 210-230mm of penetration, which means the EMIL 1951 will have around a 50% chance of being penetrated frontally on level ground, where as the EMIL I will have to be penetrated through the weaker lower plate. However this is what makes the difference decisive. The EMIL I has 80mm of side armor, more than enough to angle as necessary provided the player does not over-angle. On the other hand, the EMIL 1951 has 35mm of side armor, which means it can not angle to the Soviet heavy tanks and many tank destroyers due to the overmatch mechanic. In case you didn't know, if the caliber of the gun is more than 3X the base armor thickness (not effective), AP and APCR shells will always penetrate no matter the angle. Therefore if the caliber of the gun shooting the side of the EMIL 1951 is more than 105mm, the EMIL 1951 is screwed. The shell just has to touch the armor plate, even though the EMIL 1951 has spaced side-skirts, almost all 105+mm shells will penetrate the spaced armor and hit the 35mm plate behind. All Soviet heavies have 122mm  guns, and many TDs have 122, 128, 130, 150, 152mm etc. guns, which severely limits the EMIL 1951's ability to hold the frontline, as you can't always find a ridgeline. 

 

I personally think the slight advantages the EMIL 1951 has over the EMIL I in firepower and mobility are not enough to compensate for the lack of side armor. GJ WG, you've created a non-P2W Tier VIII premium!!! We need more of those. 

 

*EMIL 1951 was nerfed in Update 7.3 unexpectedly :P


Edited by P36C, 11 October 2020 - 09:36 AM.


awesome_guy290 #2 Posted 09 October 2020 - 08:42 AM

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Its not out yet, we can only hope.
Imagine Emil 1951 getting a buff soon.

I’m Loving Jagdpanther

P36C #3 Posted 09 October 2020 - 04:56 PM

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View Postawesome_guy290, on 09 October 2020 - 12:42 AM, said:

Its not out yet, we can only hope.
Imagine Emil 1951 getting a buff soon.

Lol, maybe, but I'm a bit hopeful, there are some Tier VIII premium counterparts of the tech tree versions that are worse. For example, the lekPz M41 vs Ru 251. the M41 does have 20 more dmg/shot, but has 200-300 less DPM, less view range critical for a light tank, less accuracy and a massive profile,  etc. Or alternatively the Progetto 46 and Pantera, where the Pantera technically seems statistically stronger in terms of most characteristics. Although the Progetto has a much higher WR, I think only experienced players buy the Progetto 46, so I'm quite sure it is a skewed WR. 



STEEL_Firestorm #4 Posted 10 October 2020 - 12:24 AM

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Actually I think both those premium tanks are at least equal if not stronger than their tech tree counterparts. The RU has worse gun handling and a significant weakness in its lack of gun depression over the front and back. Lekpz has -8 over every side which IMO makes it more flexible, specially when running away (which you do a lot). 

 

But anyway, the Emil 1951 does seem quite balanced so I give kudos to WG. 



P36C #5 Posted 10 October 2020 - 01:32 AM

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View PostSTEEL_Firestorm, on 09 October 2020 - 04:24 PM, said:

Actually I think both those premium tanks are at least equal if not stronger than their tech tree counterparts. The RU has worse gun handling and a significant weakness in its lack of gun depression over the front and back. Lekpz has -8 over every side which IMO makes it more flexible, specially when running away (which you do a lot). 

 

But anyway, the Emil 1951 does seem quite balanced so I give kudos to WG. 

My bad the Ru 251 does have worse gun handling, but it has better dispersion on turret traverse, which in a light is very important as you need to snapshot. Yes, the Ru 251 can't depress its gun over the front and back, but since you never really take on tanks frontally, flanking and poking unspotted, quickly pulling back, you rarely fire forwards. Don't forget the DPM difference as well, 200 less per min. on the lekPz M41 is significant, nearly one round a minute less, and the 8 degrees of gun depression often isn't enough for many ridgelines not to mention it's view range disadvantage and massive profile. I think someone that treats a light like a medium will do better in the M41 due to its 20 extra dmg/shot, but a good light driver will do much better in the Ru 251.

 

As for the Progetto 46, it is a lot more debatable, but I do think the WR is skewed, and that it is equal if not just a touch worse.


Edited by P36C, 10 October 2020 - 01:33 AM.


STEEL_Firestorm #6 Posted 11 October 2020 - 01:02 AM

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Hmm I had the impression RU was annoying to play, but looking at my stats they are about the same. I guess it really comes down to play style because I really like the lekpz lol


P36C #7 Posted 11 October 2020 - 09:35 AM

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View PostSTEEL_Firestorm, on 10 October 2020 - 05:02 PM, said:

Hmm I had the impression RU was annoying to play, but looking at my stats they are about the same. I guess it really comes down to play style because I really like the lekpz lol

I suppose, I do a lot better in the Ru 251, but now that I'm not as noob as I used to be, maybe I'll do well in the lekPz M41 too lol.



BossArdnutz #8 Posted 14 October 2020 - 03:53 AM

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"... if the caliber of the gun is more than 3X the base armor thickness (not effective), AP and APCR shells will always penetrate no matter the angle."

Close. It's not 'always penetrate', it's 'never ricochet'. So a large caliber shell still needs to overcome the effective armour thickness to penetrate. Of course, at 35mm side armour, that's not hard.

JDBC567 #9 Posted 14 October 2020 - 04:46 AM

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View PostBossArdnutz, on 14 October 2020 - 08:53 AM, said:

"... if the caliber of the gun is more than 3X the base armor thickness (not effective), AP and APCR shells will always penetrate no matter the angle."

Close. It's not 'always penetrate', it's 'never ricochet'. So a large caliber shell still needs to overcome the effective armour thickness to penetrate. Of course, at 35mm side armour, that's not hard.

Did you test it out?

I think that the shell will penetrate no matter what.

122mm shells always seem to go through 40mm armour...no matter the angle.



BossArdnutz #10 Posted 16 October 2020 - 12:49 AM

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View PostJDBC567, on 14 October 2020 - 04:46 AM, said:

Did you test it out?

I think that the shell will penetrate no matter what.

122mm shells always seem to go through 40mm armour...no matter the angle.

 

Worth testing for sure. I'm just going off what's been published on the topic by WG (some of which is about WOT PC and may not fully apply to blitz).

 

Thinking a test through, it's actually quite tricky.  As described by WG, AP rounds have normalisation, which subtracts 5° from the angle for armour pen calculation (though not for ricochet calculation). To get a guaranteed fail, the effective armour after normalisation needs to be greater than the maximum pen (I.e. average pen * 1.05).

 

 Typical low-tier 122mm AP pen is 175mm I think? So to guarantee failure, we need effective armour > 175 * 1.05 = 184mm.

 

For a 40mm plate, that means an angle of 77.5°. Thanks to normalisation, that means we need to hit at greater than 82.5° which means we'll be looking at a very small target! 

 

The other thing that might be happening is double overmatch. That's definitely supposed to be included in WOT PC but I don't know if WG have said if it's in blitz. Double overmatch increases normalisation for AP and APCR if the calibre is more than double the nominal thickness. For a 122mm vs 40mm plate, double overmatch would increase normalisation from 5° to a massive 21.35°. At that point, a shell that hits at 89° is counted at hitting at just over 67° which is of course a very easy pen.

 

So we need to test double overmatch first, then work out what guns and angles we need to test triple overmatch. Ideally we want a high-calibre gun with very low AP pen, I think being able to use a thicker armour plate will help. Any suggestions? 


Edited by BossArdnutz, 16 October 2020 - 12:50 AM.


BossArdnutz #11 Posted 16 October 2020 - 01:18 AM

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This is interesting - no longer maintained, but the old blitz wiki says double overmatch is in blitz, but says triple overmatch is guaranteed pen, not "never ricochet" (which is what the in-game tips screen says).

https://wiki.wargami...echanics_(Blitz)#Two_Calibers_Rule



Joy_127 #12 Posted 24 October 2020 - 12:59 PM

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Emil 1 is already op. It will get nerfed for sure very soon. Among all the the tanks I'v played I'm have 2nd highest damage per battle with it. Slightly below T3. Better emil 1 will be more op. 




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