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Alternative missile tank nerf idea


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basakayanjit1 #1 Posted 07 February 2020 - 10:24 AM

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In my opinion, nerf of heat missiles to 310mm pen won't affect arty abilities of those tanks if you don't rework autoaim exploit. 

Also, if you do rework autoaim, say for sniper mode only; the missiles would just be slow velocity gold ammo. There wouldn't be any other incentive to use missile as it needs more exposure to enemy fire.

What if you kept the autoaim as it is now, but nerf their pen to like 200mm? I wouldn't have problem if they pen the weak roofs of hull or turret of my slow heavy, it won't be reliable. They can pen lights and meds maybe, but they can dodge missile more effectively.

You see, when I go Mines hill near the rock in E100, and I see enemy sheridan behind ridge spotted, I fully expect a missile, I see it coming towards me, I angle my turret, but it still pens me; I don't have much to do to reply.

Edit : Not to mention, it would delete their ability to fight superheavies from the front.

 


Edited by basakayanjit1, 07 February 2020 - 10:37 AM.


ankitgusai19 #2 Posted 07 February 2020 - 12:43 PM

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View Postbasakayanjit1, on 07 February 2020 - 03:24 PM, said:

In my opinion, nerf of heat missiles to 310mm pen won't affect arty abilities of those tanks if you don't rework autoaim exploit. 

 

what autoaim exploit?

 

 



basakayanjit1 #3 Posted 07 February 2020 - 01:47 PM

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Well, you can aim your gun up towards sky when firing missile, and keep it pointed there and aim with your look out bar(the bar that helps you look around without turning your turret). You can sit just under a ridgeline, shoot at a spotted enemy an artillery consistently. They can't shoot back at you because they can't even see you.

It was not originally intended to work like that.



ankitgusai19 #4 Posted 08 February 2020 - 07:21 AM

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View Postbasakayanjit1, on 07 February 2020 - 06:47 PM, said:

Well, you can aim your gun up towards sky when firing missile, and keep it pointed there and aim with your look out bar(the bar that helps you look around without turning your turret). You can sit just under a ridgeline, shoot at a spotted enemy an artillery consistently. They can't shoot back at you because they can't even see you.

It was not originally intended to work like that.

This is how it intended to work. 

Please let me explain,
Regardless of where the missile is it follows the aiming reticle which is the basic mechanism, I thing we all agree to that. (This in fact is what the only condition t49 ATGMs had).

Now in this version of missiles,
The reticle also has depth perception. What I mean by that? Say there is an enemy tank in front of a player at about 150 meters, and there is also a giant rock in between them at around 75 meters, if player directly aims through rock to the enemy player while pointing gun barrel sideways it will not go and hit the enemy. In that case the rock becomes the target and Missile will bend it a way that it hits the rock. 

 

The above rule also applies when enemy is moving, if it goes behind the cover the cover becomes the target and not the tank.  

Now there is an indicator in aiming circle that tells us that an enemy tank is locked, for which you need to have to point the reticle using lookout pan(or otherwise) directly to the enemy.

 

Block Quote

You can sit just under a ridgeline, shoot at a spotted enemy an artillery consistently. They can't shoot back at you because they can't even see you.

 

This does not always work, as I have explained above. 

I am not saying it is impossible to shoot without direct line of sight between tank to tank, but it takes practice to know from which position players will be able to gain that margin where they dont have to expose themselves while still can point the reticle directly to enemy.

This is how they have intended to work, unlike t49 ATGM where once a tank is locked ATGMs will follow players no matter where they go, the new ATGMs also have 400 meter range to limit spawn camping and what not.

Besides, even if everything done correctly the damage in not guaranteed due to ATGM being HEAT and its extremely difficult to aim at weak points because auto zoom does not work when player is not scoped in. One need to be extremely skilled (with bigger screens) to make 80% of the ATGMs land on the enemy(of which aprox 60% doing damage).

That said, 
 I am not denying the fact that ATGM tanks are OP. They are OP, the tier 9 T92E1 is very next to being broken. 


What I would change to make it balanced, 
It cant have both higher APCR pen and higher damage(tier 9 have better pen and damage than batchat 25 AP). If 240 pen needs to be retained then APCR should be changed to normal HEAT. If not than it should be nerfed to 200-210 mm.

ATGM pen of 340 mm is way too high, it should be in same vicinity as mediums and lights, i.e. ATGMs shouldnt have more than 300 mm pen. If players needs 330 mm pen they have to use calibrated shells and sacrifice DPM.


 


Edited by ankitgusai19, 08 February 2020 - 07:28 AM.


DieWithYourBootsOn #5 Posted 08 February 2020 - 09:24 AM

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I have an account on the NA server as well, and because of that I also get logged into their forums (forum.wotblitz.com). It is much more active than this one.

 

According to WG Staff, namely RibbleStripe, that exploit is not how the missiles were intended to work. But they will not remove it with 6.8.

Personally, I think nerfing the Pen is the wrong approach with the missile tanks - it seems that will make them more likely to use the exploit to drop it on target from above.

 

They've discussed it at more length over on that server.



TnkDztroyer #6 Posted 08 February 2020 - 10:07 AM

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View PostDieWithYourBootsOn, on 08 February 2020 - 07:24 PM, said:

I have an account on the NA server as well, and because of that I also get logged into their forums (forum.wotblitz.com). It is much more active than this one.

 

According to WG Staff, namely RibbleStripe, that exploit is not how the missiles were intended to work. But they will not remove it with 6.8.

Personally, I think nerfing the Pen is the wrong approach with the missile tanks - it seems that will make them more likely to use the exploit to drop it on target from above.

 

They've discussed it at more length over on that server.

 

I find there's too much traffic on the NA forum. keeping up with all the threads requires too much of a time commitment. besides, I don't like the atmosphere there. it's a bit toxic. ppl tend to get personal and attack and criticise each other. it's much better posting here. dunno what the euro forum is like tho.

 


Edited by TnkDztroyer, 09 February 2020 - 09:00 PM.

Greens 0 / Reds 7 situation normal..


ankitgusai19 #7 Posted 08 February 2020 - 10:50 AM

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View PostDieWithYourBootsOn, on 08 February 2020 - 02:24 PM, said:

I have an account on the NA server as well, and because of that I also get logged into their forums (forum.wotblitz.com). It is much more active than this one.

 

According to WG Staff, namely RibbleStripe, that exploit is not how the missiles were intended to work. But they will not remove it with 6.8.

Personally, I think nerfing the Pen is the wrong approach with the missile tanks - it seems that will make them more likely to use the exploit to drop it on target from above.

 

They've discussed it at more length over on that server.

In that case I would love to read the thread. 
Because WG show these exact things in promo video and even in later stream with RollingSwarn. 
It cant be that now they think shooting over obstacle is an exploit. 



TnkDztroyer #8 Posted 09 February 2020 - 08:46 PM

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View Postankitgusai19, on 08 February 2020 - 08:50 PM, said:

In that case I would love to read the thread. 
Because WG show these exact things in promo video and even in later stream with RollingSwarn. 
It cant be that now they think shooting over obstacle is an exploit. 

 

I thought the whole idea of missiles was so that you could shoot without being shot at. ie. from behind cover. get rid of them anyway I reckon


Edited by TnkDztroyer, 09 February 2020 - 09:02 PM.

Greens 0 / Reds 7 situation normal..


BossArdnutz #9 Posted 09 February 2020 - 09:26 PM

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Here it is: http://forum.wotblit...d-word/#topmost
 

Block Quote

The lookout bar aim method was never part of the intent with ATGM’s.

During live testing we (testers) complained that the Missiles where way to erratic.
If you launched near an object (be it green tank, wall, mound) the Missile often ran into it.

At that point - Missiles were nearly useless and always very situational.

WG then refined the missiles and had a different version on Open testing of 6.6

I didn’t play that one - and anyone who played Live Test and OT didn’t seem to think the Missiles were vastly different - other than reliably coming out from the barrel area.

Pos1t1ve says certain other things where noted in OT - but I think everyone should understand that the Arty style Missile tactic was never planned for Blitz.

 

Historically, the point of the Shillelagh missiles was to give a light tank the ability to damage a moving MBT, given that the short-barrel large-calibre gun is simply not capable of firing a useful AP round and the low shell velocity makes hitting a moving target with a HEAT round nearly impossible. The APCR ammo in blitz is completely made-up, the ammo choices should really be missile as standard and HE as secondary and that's it. Maybe they could boost it up a bit and have a low- velocity HEAT round (same as the T49 but maybe a bit more pen) as standard, missile as premium but with a proper aiming system, and normal HE as the third ammo choice. Shillelagh was a purely direct-fire weapon. 

The missiles should be line-of-sight only, like the real thing. The gunner aimed the missile by keeping the sight laid on the target the whole time, the guidance system calculated the difference between where the sight was pointed and where the missile was and sent those to the missile by an infra red command beam (so there had to be an unbroken line of sight between the firing tank and the missile as well).

In game, missile speed should be increased massively, at least 500 m/s, and the missile should guide along a line coming straight out of the gun barrel, instead of trying to hit whatever object the free-look cursor is pointing at as is currently the case. The way the missiles are in blitz is like some unholy combination of the best features of most modern GPS-guided indirect fire mortar rounds and a copperhead 155 mm laser guided missile.

Edited by BossArdnutz, 09 February 2020 - 09:28 PM.


ankitgusai19 #10 Posted 10 February 2020 - 07:21 AM

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View PostBossArdnutz, on 10 February 2020 - 02:26 AM, said:

 The way the missiles are in blitz is like some unholy combination of the best features of most modern GPS-guided indirect fire mortar rounds and a copperhead 155 mm laser guided missile.

This sounds fun, can we plz have this in next event?

Oh and that link is informative but does not have a said reply from ribblestripe. or at least I coudnt find it.  
 


Edited by ankitgusai19, 10 February 2020 - 07:39 AM.


BossArdnutz #11 Posted 11 February 2020 - 02:15 AM

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Actually, I found a post from RibbleStripe, and he says they do intend for the missiles to be round-the-corner magic darts:

http://forum.wotblit...t__1320#topmost

A utterly stupid and game-damaging concept in my view. I want here for the T49A but I fail to see how the current implementation is much better.

ankitgusai19 #12 Posted 11 February 2020 - 06:45 AM

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View PostBossArdnutz, on 11 February 2020 - 07:15 AM, said:

Actually, I found a post from RibbleStripe, and he says they do intend for the missiles to be round-the-corner magic darts:

http://forum.wotblit...t__1320#topmost
 


Okay thanks, here's the direct link to ribblestripes' response.

 

Block Quote

A utterly stupid and game-damaging concept in my view. I want here for the T49A but I fail to see how the current implementation is much better.

 
IMO, and I think that is what RibblesStrips is also trying to say, missiles are not guaranteed unfair damage, there's fair bit of skill and bit of luck involved. 

What nobody seems to be talking about is the other aspects of that tank. For example, Tier 9 Batchat 25AP has 320 alpha with 232 pen AP shells while the T95E2 gets 240 APCR with 540 alpha and 10 degrees of gun depression and the whole upper plat is auto bounce zone if one knows how to use it. 
That is the reason it is broken, the thing has answer for every situation, which should not be the case.

I am not saying the current version of missiles arent powerful but they arent what T49 ATGM had. It is not a game breaking mechanism IMO but requires bit of fine tuning. Let see how it fairs with alpha and pen nerf. 

 


Edited by ankitgusai19, 11 February 2020 - 06:48 AM.


Wolfgang_Kopp #13 Posted 12 February 2020 - 12:34 AM

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View Postankitgusai19, on 11 February 2020 - 06:45 AM, said:


Okay thanks, here's the direct link to ribblestripes' response.

 

 
 

What nobody seems to be talking about is the other aspects of that tank. For example, Tier 9 Batchat 25AP has 320 alpha with 232 pen AP shells while the T95E2 gets 240 APCR with 540 alpha and 10 degrees of gun depression and the whole upper plat is auto bounce zone if one knows how to use it. 
That is the reason it is broken, the thing has answer for every situation, which should not be the case.

 

 

 

Apparently the tank will get nerfed in 6.8 as the armor is ridiculous for a LT


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Newb179 #14 Posted 12 February 2020 - 03:12 PM

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See this is the problem with wargaming. The constant nerf and buff which is not needed in this case. The T95E2 is a perfectly BALANCED tank. It can play as a light tank, a medium tank or a Tank Destroyer. A versatile tank that is a complement to the Main Battle Tank concept. Wargaming insisted on the concept of TD, LT, Heavy or Medium.

BossArdnutz #15 Posted 12 February 2020 - 08:56 PM

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Does the T92E1 proposed armour nerf do anything though? The armour doesn't bounce shots because it's thick, it bounces them because it's angled and they ricochet.

Reducing it from 76mm to 52mm sounds good, but since 52 x 3 = 156mm, the only tank that will notice a difference is the Fv 215b 183 as it can now overmatch. 155mm guns like the Foch and T30 will still ricochet just as much, as will anything smaller. I've already taken to only firing HE at them with the T30 as at least I can get splash damage, even though it doesn't usually pen. But bouncing an AP shot is just too annoying and happens far too often.

I'm less certain about HE and HESH effects.




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