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How to Spot a "Rigged" Game


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Creighton_Abrams #1 Posted 21 April 2019 - 03:33 PM

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I guess, some of us have been in games where the other team seems invincible. But, is that really due to Player Skill ?

 

7-0 games are nowadays not uncommon..  surely not everyone is asleep ?

even 5-0 games ?

 

Something must be going on.

 

What's your experience, and any thoughts on the matter ?

 

 

 



erwin10001 #2 Posted 22 April 2019 - 05:15 AM

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one-sided games are far more common than close matches. its almost as if the result is decided before you start playing. The losing team will often have 2-3 tanks with 0 dmg on their team.

 

For closer and more 'balanced' games, we need to get rid of the 0 damage players.

 

One solution of course is to impose 0 xp, 0 credits (or negative credits) , 0 mission completion for players with 0 dmg. But you are currently allowed to afk and earn credits/xp (if you don't believe, you can try it out during Mad Games, especially with premium active)

 



azithro2 #3 Posted 22 April 2019 - 06:05 AM

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View PostCreighton_Abrams, on 21 April 2019 - 03:33 PM, said:

I guess, some of us have been in games where the other team seems invincible. But, is that really due to Player Skill ?

7-0 games are nowadays not uncommon..  surely not everyone is asleep ?

even 5-0 games ?

Something must be going on.

What's your experience, and any thoughts on the matter ?

 

 

 

 

All "free to play games" are literally rigged. Each in their own way, but following similar principles. Here too developers or more like producers do copy the ruses of others. 

There has always been controversy about HOW Blitz was rigged exactly. The problem here is that besides that people who are a bit to loyal to Blitz for their own good, each account is not 

affected in the same way. When running multiple accounts with different WR, it becomes pretty clear how each WR is actually "locked" after a certain number of games. I man not 10k or more,

already around 500-1000, you are getting pretty much kept locked. No matter how skilful you are "as it is always me", and no matter how tactical you approach the game.

I saw it pretty much in Mad Games now, that each account gets as many wins/losses as it "deserves" or is allowed to have. They are not going to modify that algorithm out for Mad Games, are they?!

 

Actually good, disciplined and tactically versatile players will achieve a WR over 50% still, and you can check after each game, that the players with the highest WR are most often those with the most damage. But I can imagine that even them get "put to their place" by the rigging and will need huge efforts and doing good choices at every moment, to only improve their WR by just a bit.

 

And obviously, "something" or someone behind it must take care of that!

 

There are some knowns in this and their are some unknowns, while MM and RNG are still the usual suspects.

 

I mean, look at the continuous efforts, learning and thinking and discipline some Players have to have and sustain, to just get or keep that 60%!

And as a reminder, to still ONLY win 12 of 20 games instead of 10-11 of 20, (corresponding to 50-55% WR) which any halfway decent player is able to get without seal clubbing and without bypassing the rigging in other ways. These are the numbers who actually prove that the game must be rigged and that you are put in place by whatever algorithm.


Edited by azithro2, 22 April 2019 - 06:09 AM.


Esh11 #4 Posted 22 April 2019 - 06:15 AM

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I remember when I started playing 40% WR players used to be quite uncommon . In those days in order to find 40% WR players you had to go to certain special clans . 40% players were almost assumed to be trolls by default . Nowadays 40% players are so common . There will be 3 or 4 40% players on both teams  in virtually every game and you will frequently come across 37 - 38 % wr players as well . I do not understand why this change has happened . 

                                           

                                                                 

  


f1reguy #5 Posted 22 April 2019 - 09:04 AM

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I’m not sure the effect of the controversial algorithm kicks in over 50%, when I was a lower winrate than I am now, shells did this strange thing, we call it “damage”. A phenomena where I shoot a pixel tank round and it affects another persons pixel tank adversely. Now as I climb higher the liklyhood of hurting other players pixel tank has decreased, don’t worry though, the crew tells me I hit something critical despite no module damage, no track damage, (sometimes it’s not even near the reds track,or tank for that matter). Then there’s ghost shells, but one of my personal favourites is the dirt behind the tank showing impact. Somehow I must have witnessed something special from the matrix in the blink of server ping.

 

the 7-0 things plain annoying, it feels like it happens more. But then again I have doubts if Cadbury’s Moro bar has stayed the same size or shrunk while I grew up. It’s hard to remember landslides, but one things for sure, we used to derp our opponents, in some cases from miles above them. Now the team has more time to think about their life, but yet they throw it away in 2 minutes or so,despite the nerfing of everything in one way or another.

 

i do hate being on the losing team like everyone else does, and it’s fair to appreciate losses happen, but not for hours at a time. Only to follow with wins for a period of time also. And if being on the losing team must happen one has to assume that the games matchmaker must handicap the team somehow, so if I’m correct in this thought, the top guy on the losing team by damage or xp (not sure which) was the team member being handicapped (unless of course the chosen one died early, probably spotting unsupported). 

 

Maybe we all simply just get turns being the winner or loser, but unless RNG secures that concept, it cannot be possible,since we all drive individually making our own mistakes. 

 

Good luck out there guys. 



azithro2 #6 Posted 22 April 2019 - 10:31 AM

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View PostEsh11, on 22 April 2019 - 06:15 AM, said:

I remember when I started playing 40% WR players used to be quite uncommon . In those days in order to find 40% WR players you had to go to certain special clans . 40% players were almost assumed to be trolls by default . Nowadays 40% players are so common . There will be 3 or 4 40% players on both teams  in virtually every game and you will frequently come across 37 - 38 % wr players as well . I do not understand why this change has happened . 

 

The even bigger change is that one sees players with lower 40% WR with like 10,000 games or more... and with all the Mathematical Geniuses in mind who have tried to prove or disprove that MM was random and not rigged, has anyone ever wondered with WHOM they have lost these let's say 43% won versus 57% lost, equals 5,700 lost games... considering that there are 6 other player per game who MUST have lost too... 34,200 other payers have lost with them!!! Were they 60% players mostly or rather 40-45%? If MM was random, the others who had lost those 34,200 games would have to be also random... and I doubt that. Now 60% players may not wonder about these odds, because they were on the red team of these battles most of the time...LOL  Who knows ;) 

 


Edited by azithro2, 22 April 2019 - 10:33 AM.


Esh11 #7 Posted 22 April 2019 - 01:49 PM

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View Postazithro2, on 22 April 2019 - 10:31 AM, said:

 

The even bigger change is that one sees players with lower 40% WR with like 10,000 games or more... and with all the Mathematical Geniuses in mind who have tried to prove or disprove that MM was random and not rigged, has anyone ever wondered with WHOM they have lost these let's say 43% won versus 57% lost, equals 5,700 lost games... considering that there are 6 other player per game who MUST have lost too... 34,200 other payers have lost with them!!! Were they 60% players mostly or rather 40-45%? If MM was random, the others who had lost those 34,200 games would have to be also random... and I doubt that. Now 60% players may not wonder about these odds, because they were on the red team of these battles most of the time...LOL  Who knows ;) 

 

 

I do not think MM is rigged . I have played enough games to understand when and why a game was lost . A lot of games  you can tell right at the beginning that this isn't going to go well . Someone just yolos in one direction and gets killed in 30 secs . Usually these are low WR players but people with respectable wr's also do such mistakes although not frequently . I have seen 40% wr players do the right things and win games and seen 55% wr players do the most stupid things . Do you blame MM for this ? The 40% WR players on the red team were probably just lucky that they went the correct way . 

                                           

                                                                 

  


TnkCmndrToo #8 Posted 23 April 2019 - 01:09 AM

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View PostEsh11, on 23 April 2019 - 01:49 AM, said:

 

I do not think MM is rigged . I have played enough games to understand when and why a game was lost . A lot of games  you can tell right at the beginning that this isn't going to go well . Someone just yolos in one direction and gets killed in 30 secs . Usually these are low WR players but people with respectable wr's also do such mistakes although not frequently . I have seen 40% wr players do the right things and win games and seen 55% wr players do the most stupid things . Do you blame MM for this ? The 40% WR players on the red team were probably just lucky that they went the correct way . 

 

Agreed. Unfortunately, the nature of random matchmaking means that sometimes, the game will appear 'rigged' due to the varying levels of player skill. Ultimately, a lot of it is down to chance, but I always say that the good players will affect the game positively regardless of the team composition, and thus will win more.

Edited by TnkCmndrToo, 23 April 2019 - 01:10 AM.


azithro2 #9 Posted 23 April 2019 - 02:49 AM

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View PostEsh11, on 22 April 2019 - 01:49 PM, said:

 

I do not think MM is rigged . I have played enough games to understand when and why a game was lost . A lot of games  you can tell right at the beginning that this isn't going to go well . Someone just yolos in one direction and gets killed in 30 secs . Usually these are low WR players but people with respectable wr's also do such mistakes although not frequently . I have seen 40% wr players do the right things and win games and seen 55% wr players do the most stupid things . Do you blame MM for this ? The 40% WR players on the red team were probably just lucky that they went the correct way . 

 

I think it is rigged. I already said that one can easily observe and see confirmed that often the players with a decent WR are on top of the list when it comes to damage and Xp - it would be really strange if it was the opposite. And obviously what you observe happening in each game at the beginning and during the course of the game, even at the end is conclusive too. But that is not how the rigging could be SPOTTED, according to the topic. The occurrences in the game, either typical or rather exceptional do NOT exclude rigging on the level of MM or RNG, they would just be the likely result of such rigging or making the outcome more likely. Do you get the type of game that is rather predictable in its outcome (as a likely loss - no matter how it happens), according to your WR, or not, that is the question?!  My observation is that exactly that seems to happen. I have 2 accounts with 47 and 48% WR, and I have a few more with 55+% and as a matter of facts, on the under 50% accounts I will repeatedly and consistently get more than half "sure losses" , while on the high WR accounts, I get less than half. As simple as that. No matter how hard I try to get these under 50% "denoobed", it's impossible! And it needs no effort whatsoever to keep those rather decent WR on other accounts up and even improving slightly. Even during WE or Events.... The number of games on each account matters of course, but there should be slight improvement in the long term, but it is radically impossible. And I know that other Lads have observed the exact same thing.

 


Edited by azithro2, 23 April 2019 - 02:53 AM.


ShakeelMdMd #10 Posted 24 April 2019 - 07:03 AM

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View PostEsh11, on 22 April 2019 - 01:49 PM, said:

 

I do not think MM is rigged . I have played enough games to understand when and why a game was lost . A lot of games  you can tell right at the beginning that this isn't going to go well . Someone just yolos in one direction and gets killed in 30 secs . Usually these are low WR players but people with respectable wr's also do such mistakes although not frequently . I have seen 40% wr players do the right things and win games and seen 55% wr players do the most stupid things . Do you blame MM for this ? The 40% WR players on the red team were probably just lucky that they went the correct way . 

 

I have seen umpteen battles where Everyone on my team has <1000 battle count, while opfor has at times 4-5 players with 10000+ battle EACH. This is also a form of rigging.

This is also why players are seen yolo'ing. If WG dumps total noobs on my team, who are still learning, the YOLO is higher and team fate is decided Before the game even starts.

WG has simply NOT addressed the seal clubbing challenge in any way ( suggestions like make sealclubbers get 0 xp, 0 credits for <t4 games, etc abound on this forum itself)

 

Good players being constantly put as lower tier in the battle, to accommodate new players who do not fully understand the game while good for newer player, seals the fate of the battle before it starts.

I am sure you have all seen t4 MTs camp and snipe from the windmill on mines and t4 TDs running up the hill. This should be considered in MM, not more than 2 new player as high tier on each team.

 

Constant nerfing of the wrong t1-t4 tanks is killing this game, nerf the Matildas, B1s and KeNiOtsu's WG cos ur contradicting yourself abt making games longer and easier for new players!!



Esh11 #11 Posted 24 April 2019 - 01:40 PM

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View PostShakeelMdMd, on 24 April 2019 - 07:03 AM, said:

 

I have seen umpteen battles where Everyone on my team has <1000 battle count, while opfor has at times 4-5 players with 10000+ battle EACH. This is also a form of rigging.

This is also why players are seen yolo'ing. If WG dumps total noobs on my team, who are still learning, the YOLO is higher and team fate is decided Before the game even starts.

WG has simply NOT addressed the seal clubbing challenge in any way ( suggestions like make sealclubbers get 0 xp, 0 credits for <t4 games, etc abound on this forum itself)

 

Good players being constantly put as lower tier in the battle, to accommodate new players who do not fully understand the game while good for newer player, seals the fate of the battle before it starts.

I am sure you have all seen t4 MTs camp and snipe from the windmill on mines and t4 TDs running up the hill. This should be considered in MM, not more than 2 new player as high tier on each team.

 

Constant nerfing of the wrong t1-t4 tanks is killing this game, nerf the Matildas, B1s and KeNiOtsu's WG cos ur contradicting yourself abt making games longer and easier for new players!!

 

No one has ever provided evidence , hard stats or data . The post always begins with " I have seen " or some version of it . We are simply expected to take your view as correct without any evidence . The only evidence is ones own bias . Those who believe in rigged MM will agree and those who don't will not . Kindly provide actual evidence in order to convince the other side . eg. since you have seen umpteen battles where there are all <1000 battle players on your team and 5 , 10K games veterans on red team kindly provide us with at least  3 or 4 screenshots .

Edited by Esh11, 24 April 2019 - 01:44 PM.

                                           

                                                                 

  


TnkCmndrToo #12 Posted 25 April 2019 - 12:20 AM

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View PostEsh11, on 25 April 2019 - 01:40 AM, said:

 

No one has ever provided evidence , hard stats or data . The post always begins with " I have seen " or some version of it . We are simply expected to take your view as correct without any evidence . The only evidence is ones own bias . Those who believe in rigged MM will agree and those who don't will not . Kindly provide actual evidence in order to convince the other side . eg. since you have seen umpteen battles where there are all <1000 battle players on your team and 5 , 10K games veterans on red team kindly provide us with at least  3 or 4 screenshots .

 

I agree, and I think that's a great idea! Let's make this a proper study - then we will at least have a proper conclusion, and it won't just all be anecdotal as it is now. If we present WG with solid facts, maybe they'll even take notice...

 

First, establish the parameters of the experiment. How exactly are we defining a 'rigged' game? How will we determine what constitutes 'rigged'? How are we measuring this?

 

For example, those who believe that their team is always full of 40%-ers and that the reds are always unicums should post screenshots/note down the numbers of maybe 5-10 consecutive games at a time for a week or two, and calculate average win rate/ratio of <50%:50%< players on each team etc. If you are correct, then we should see a consistent trend supporting the hypothesis. I for one would be extremely interested to see the results, and I'm sure everyone else would be too.

 

Perhaps I will start keeping track too to see if there is any truth to these claims. Watch this space...


Edited by TnkCmndrToo, 25 April 2019 - 12:21 AM.


erwin10001 #13 Posted 25 April 2019 - 12:53 AM

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View PostTnkCmndrToo, on 25 April 2019 - 12:20 AM, said:

 

I agree, and I think that's a great idea! Let's make this a proper study - then we will at least have a proper conclusion, and it won't just all be anecdotal as it is now. If we present WG with solid facts, maybe they'll even take notice...

 

First, establish the parameters of the experiment. How exactly are we defining a 'rigged' game? How will we determine what constitutes 'rigged'? How are we measuring this?

 

For example, those who believe that their team is always full of 40%-ers and that the reds are always unicums should post screenshots/note down the numbers of maybe 5-10 consecutive games at a time for a week or two, and calculate average win rate/ratio of <50%:50%< players on each team etc. If you are correct, then we should see a consistent trend supporting the hypothesis. I for one would be extremely interested to see the results, and I'm sure everyone else would be too.

 

Perhaps I will start keeping track too to see if there is any truth to these claims. Watch this space...

 

i've mentioned that my 'theory' is that new players get preferential MM for some time in order to get them accustomed to the game. This could simply be a few % extra chance to be higher tier, or something more complex.

 

If new players are higher tier, this means that the regulars are more likely to be lower tier. Since there is a constant flow of new players entering the game and subsequently uninstalling, this 'disadvantage' to regular sticks around.

 

This is the experience of so many rerolls who do fine at first (eg: i rerolls will get a tier 7/8 premium or two to grind credits for their reroll acccount so there is a consistent tank they use) but MM subsequently becomes terrible. Even the previous forum whiner "destr___" managed to get his reroll up to 50% before crashing and burning to his natural 40% winrate.

 

Cynics will say that giving beginners a comfortable game will encourage them to spend money before they uninstall. 

 

 



erwin10001 #14 Posted 25 April 2019 - 03:56 AM

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Adding to that is my experience of being the sole lower tier tank in more matches than a normal statistical distribution would suggest..... 



Esh11 #15 Posted 25 April 2019 - 06:06 AM

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View Posterwin10001, on 25 April 2019 - 12:53 AM, said:

 

i've mentioned that my 'theory' is that new players get preferential MM for some time in order to get them accustomed to the game. This could simply be a few % extra chance to be higher tier, or something more complex.

 

If new players are higher tier, this means that the regulars are more likely to be lower tier. Since there is a constant flow of new players entering the game and subsequently uninstalling, this 'disadvantage' to regular sticks around.

 

This is the experience of so many rerolls who do fine at first (eg: i rerolls will get a tier 7/8 premium or two to grind credits for their reroll acccount so there is a consistent tank they use) but MM subsequently becomes terrible. Even the previous forum whiner "destr___" managed to get his reroll up to 50% before crashing and burning to his natural 40% winrate.

 

Cynics will say that giving beginners a comfortable game will encourage them to spend money before they uninstall. 

 

 

 

There is a problem with this theory if you see what the other person said .The guy said that he was constantly put on teams with new players and red team had experienced players . He said this caused him to lose . So the new players also lost while the 5 , 10k+ games veteran players won . Since according to the guy this happened umpteen times it seems WG is trying to make new player lose by putting them on one team and make veteran players win by putting them all on one team . But we were told MM tries to make new players win and old player lose ?

                                           

                                                                 

  


Esh11 #16 Posted 25 April 2019 - 06:10 AM

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If anyone can suggest a practical experiment to get some data then I am willing to join . Even if the sample size is limited , if many players return with similar findings then we could actually prove something . Right now all allegations and conspiracy theories are based on " I have experienced " or " In my opinion " .

                                           

                                                                 

  


__GetFunked__ #17 Posted 25 April 2019 - 06:59 AM

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I just think that MM and RNG tries its best to 'even' out stats. It tries to give players a taste of winning and losing and this is why oneday you can seem invincible and the next cannot win to save your life. This is usually my experience - its just that I am now smart enough to know when I have been placed in the 'bad' team pool for the day and stop playing.

 

I'm not sure I buy this new player bias, or even the reverse where some suggest new players are given a tough time in order to make them believe that if they buy a premium tank, their fortunes will improve. I would suggest out of the two that the latter is the most likely though, as rerollers are likely to get good initial stats anyway because they're already experienced players that know what they're doing, choosing lines where they know the tanks well and perform well, and buy the high tier premium tanks that they also perform well in to fund their quick navigation through the tech trees. They probably only experience drops in winrate when they get right to the top tiers or try to grind new tank lines where they're not so good. 



TnkCmndrToo #18 Posted 25 April 2019 - 07:31 AM

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View PostEsh11, on 25 April 2019 - 06:10 PM, said:

If anyone can suggest a practical experiment to get some data then I am willing to join . Even if the sample size is limited , if many players return with similar findings then we could actually prove something . Right now all allegations and conspiracy theories are based on " I have experienced " or " In my opinion " .

 

As I said, we can post screenshots/note down the info of maybe 5-10 consecutive games at a time for a week or two, and calculate average win rate of each team, ratio of <50%:50%< players on each team, and tiering details (i.e how many top tier, whether you're top tier or not), as well as game outcome and duration. So what I'll do is play tanks of each tier, let's say, and note down the stats I mentioned. I will start doing this as soon as I can, and hopefully I'll get a better idea of what to do as I go along...

 

 

 



Esh11 #19 Posted 25 April 2019 - 07:51 AM

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View PostTnkCmndrToo, on 25 April 2019 - 07:31 AM, said:

 

As I said, we can post screenshots/note down the info of maybe 5-10 consecutive games at a time for a week or two, and calculate average win rate of each team, ratio of <50%:50%< players on each team, and tiering details (i.e how many top tier, whether you're top tier or not), as well as game outcome and duration. So what I'll do is play tanks of each tier, let's say, and note down the stats I mentioned. I will start doing this as soon as I can, and hopefully I'll get a better idea of what to do as I go along...

 

 

 

 

Just played 10 back to back games in Tier 7 China mt . Need some time to tabulate the data .

                                           

                                                                 

  


__GetFunked__ #20 Posted 25 April 2019 - 09:47 AM

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View PostTnkCmndrToo, on 25 April 2019 - 07:31 AM, said:

 

As I said, we can post screenshots/note down the info of maybe 5-10 consecutive games at a time for a week or two, and calculate average win rate of each team, ratio of <50%:50%< players on each team, and tiering details (i.e how many top tier, whether you're top tier or not), as well as game outcome and duration. So what I'll do is play tanks of each tier, let's say, and note down the stats I mentioned. I will start doing this as soon as I can, and hopefully I'll get a better idea of what to do as I go along...

 

 

 

 

I would like to do something like this myself but my playing time is more limited than ever these days (basically Sat/Sun) and don't really want to limit that more by filling out spreadsheets lol. Would be very interested to see the results of any of you guys doing it though. I would suggest screenshots of the results/teams page of each battle, accompanied with a spreadheet documenting the stats as you said above. At least then those that want to investigate can search the players in game and back up the findings with regards to their stats/experience.

 

I would then also take a screenshot of the ten battles that were consecutively played from your battle history screen - so that this screenshot can also be used to correlate with the results and show that those games were indeed consecutive. The experience gained from each battle shown in this screen will match those in the individual results.


Edited by __GetFunked__, 25 April 2019 - 09:52 AM.





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