Jump to content


How to increase winrate


  • Please log in to reply
27 replies to this topic

xXYolo_Noob_DriverXx #1 Posted 26 September 2017 - 04:29 AM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 17678 battles
  • 2,884
  • [ACT-1]
  • Member since:
    12-12-2013

So you have played some battles. Over 1000 battles and getting the hang of it. But wait, your. Winrate is below 50! How do you increase your winrate? Mine used to be 45.45wr. So how did I increase it?

 

1st Step

 

Look at your damage ratio. If its 1.1, good. 1.2 is even better. But thats mot enough. Below? What a newbie. 

 

Focus on doing damage. Not only does it give you credits, it increases the chance of winning. Always aim to do 120% of your tank health as damage as a minimum. Example, 240hp tank must do 284dmg minimum. Never give up doing damage, even when your the last one. Get one more shot. Do that extra damage. Reloading? Ram.

 

2nd Step

 

Hit ratio. You need to hit to do some damage. Your hit ratio on average should be around 75. If not, practice aiming. 

 

3rd Step

 

Weakspots. Learn the tank. Its not the tank that is op, its the driver that makes the tank op. Learn the weakspots like cupola or lower glacis. A bonus is to remember that tanks top gun penetration. If its low, face hug.

 

Final Step

 

Learn angling, sidescraping, hull down, circle of death, peek a boom. They can increase your tanks potential if played right. And dont rush too much. Its a team game.

 

Learn guides from youtube or ask forumers like diamond114, maddox, and the like. Theyre unicums.

 

 


Only accepts plats. Those that need help in grinding or wants to do stupid stuff, invite me. other than that, dont.

 

Lores: IS-3D, Rudy, Angry Connor, E25, Fearless, Dragon, JgTg Snowstorm, Dedicated Warrior, Stalwart, Victory, Edel/Lupus/Nameless, Crombie, Independence, Shinobi, Matilda BP, Drac/Helsing, Tankenstein

 

 


Nova_Spirit #2 Posted 26 September 2017 - 05:08 AM

    Staff Sergeant

  • Member
  • 7628 battles
  • 251
  • [SEAL]
  • Member since:
    06-04-2017

View PostxXYolo_Noob_DriverXx, on 26 September 2017 - 04:29 AM, said:

Its a team game.

 

 That feel when you're trying to be a team player, but someone is just a [edited] idiot and rushes



erwin10001 #3 Posted 26 September 2017 - 06:11 AM

    First Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 32722 battles
  • 623
  • [SEALZ]
  • Member since:
    11-12-2016

I think 2 recent newcomers to the forums, Greenface and Abrasol, started off with 40%+ WR but have been improving steadily. Greenface has already hit the 50% mark with a damage ratio of 1.10

 

It might be interesting to see if there is any correlation between damage ratio/KDR/survival and the winrate.. If your damage ratio is 1.1 and you improve it to 1.5, what sort of winrate improve should you see...



____RON____ #4 Posted 26 September 2017 - 07:21 AM

    Corporal

  • Member
  • 7614 battles
  • 25
  • [XTRA]
  • Member since:
    08-05-2017

Im a newbie by myself,but I can suggest one thing to get better stats,which is "Never start playing in a stock tank as soon as you buy it."

I generally wait for getting the equipments to be unlocked at first,then grind free XP in other tanks to upgrade the stock tank.Then play in it while the X2s are available with crew & xp boosters.I know its disgusting & boring to wait 15 to 20 days to play in a tier 8 tank,but its always irritating to play in a stock tank with 80 % crew,it just sux.


"A friend should always underestimate your virtues and an enemy overestimate your faults."

LoneReaper #5 Posted 26 September 2017 - 09:42 AM

    Staff Sergeant

  • Member
  • 26246 battles
  • 363
  • [MECH]
  • Member since:
    04-03-2015

Conserve you hit points. Don't YOLO unless it is a calculated risk. Don't just roll forward look at the team lists before the battle predict the positions people will be taking and position accordingly. USE YOUR MINIMAP! Damage is important but more so is spotting effectively learn your tanks roll ( I have been within 100m of the whole enemy team not firing as to give away my position I did 0 damage and my team decimated the enemy because of my spotting and I got top XP)

 

DON'T JUST ROLL FORWARD!:child:


Edited by LoneReaper, 26 September 2017 - 09:00 PM.


Flavius303 #6 Posted 26 September 2017 - 10:14 AM

    Sergeant

  • Member
  • 40608 battles
  • 237
  • [ECL_]
  • Member since:
    07-16-2014
I've heard there's a strong correlation between improving win rate and spending time on the forums...

 


abrasol #7 Posted 26 September 2017 - 10:39 AM

    Sergeant

  • Member
  • 7274 battles
  • 224
  • [AUC]
  • Member since:
    06-29-2017

View Posterwin10001, on 26 September 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

I think 2 recent newcomers to the forums, Greenface and Abrasol, started off with 40%+ WR but have been improving steadily. Greenface has already hit the 50% mark with a damage ratio of 1.10

 

It might be interesting to see if there is any correlation between damage ratio/KDR/survival and the winrate.. If your damage ratio is 1.1 and you improve it to 1.5, what sort of winrate improve should you see...

 

You erwin have given quite good advice in the past, detailed and practical hints that were way more useful than the usual phrases some people through at noobs by default, probably the very same quotations, they once have heard and recorded (as beginners) - and now exclaiming them with full conviction, as if they had found it all out themselves. Sorry I had to say that, because some people when checking your win rate, treat you like underlings, or see you as the personified player, who screwed-up their last game... and then throwing all they have on tape, at you..... which brings me to the first point...

 

-Be confident, but not too confident...(however do not let better players frack with your head)

-Try to process the advice you get, do not try to imitate others (including Youtubers or others)

-Use a certain methodology in the game, but don't overdo it. What works for others may not work for you, or you may overthink it - (or some of it may not even be possible with your skill set of the moment)

-It's not the tank that matters, nor is it only the driver... it is the right combination. PS: I have been accuse recently to do better with OP tanks only, that's [edited]- look at the details of my stats and you'll see it disproved

 

-No matter what others say... MM and other factors are too often like a lottery, hence this game is to some extend a lottery...deal with it and do not blame yourself for bad luck in a game. (blaming others is a reflex, and I can't help myself either sometimes, but that's how this works... any WR over 50, you can reach, - you can only reach it because others loose more often than 50% of the time LOL). The fact that you got all the noobs in your team, that's just a coincidence - no one ever complains about the cannon fodder and the afk players in the red team!

 

-Grinding stock tanks from scratch can cost you a lot in WR, unless you are really good or pick (have) a tank that is OK as stock tank. A great part of my bad win rate is linked to exactly that.

- The going to action (attack) versus "holding back" thing... Yolo-or-not-yolo... aggressive or defensive... that is the question... There is a fine line between keeping second line or hold back for a good (justifiable) reason, or letting others exhaust their HP and damage most tanks, before going to finish off like a king... and stupid mountain camping... All of it can backfire and decide over win or loss... And I haven't figured out how to actually deal with this (myself)... really tricky to manage your HP and your contribution in each game... but I despise those smart ar.ses with high WR who really miscalculate their action versus non-action in some lost games. That's just ugly.

 

- Doing the right thing at the right moment is a matter of experience, REAL experience... no one can give advice on that nor teach it to you...unless you platoon with someone for weeks or month...

 

As for damage ratio, it affects your finances more as your WR. Of course your win rate will likely (or surely) improve your DR, but I doubt that (as suggested) it will work the other way round. Fighting and doing damage until the bitter end, I do that too LOL, won't help you to win an already lost game (for example). Doing as much damage as you can and staying alive, yes that's what this game is about. The right kill at the right time, either merited or "stolen" is of course equally important as damage.. "You stole my Kill!!! - What?! I saved your a'r'se' NOOB!!!" A dead tanker can't hurt no one anymore, one with just a few HPs left, can still win the game... so kill, kill them all ;)

 

 

Edited by abrasol, 26 September 2017 - 10:49 AM.


xXYolo_Noob_DriverXx #8 Posted 26 September 2017 - 12:33 PM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 17678 battles
  • 2,884
  • [ACT-1]
  • Member since:
    12-12-2013
my damage ratio was 0.98 when my wr was 45.45. I increased thr ratio to 1.18 with wr of 52.3.

Only accepts plats. Those that need help in grinding or wants to do stupid stuff, invite me. other than that, dont.

 

Lores: IS-3D, Rudy, Angry Connor, E25, Fearless, Dragon, JgTg Snowstorm, Dedicated Warrior, Stalwart, Victory, Edel/Lupus/Nameless, Crombie, Independence, Shinobi, Matilda BP, Drac/Helsing, Tankenstein

 

 


abrasol #9 Posted 26 September 2017 - 02:56 PM

    Sergeant

  • Member
  • 7274 battles
  • 224
  • [AUC]
  • Member since:
    06-29-2017

View PostxXYolo_Noob_DriverXx, on 26 September 2017 - 07:33 PM, said:

my damage ratio was 0.98 when my wr was 45.45. I increased thr ratio to 1.18 with wr of 52.3.

 

No contradiction to what I said... but Correlation does not imply causation unless proven... My main point is anyway, that I do not believe that creating more damage (only and at any cost) will necessarily result into a higher WR. My stats do not confirm it either. My WR curve is slightly climbing BUT constant compared to my damage ratio, which was really low, then climbed steeper and joined surprisingly the WR level more recently and is constant and increasing slightly, like the WR. The periodic WR compared to my damage ratio, on the other hand - is not even remotely showing any similarity. Which is quite determinant, if one would assume that more damage (higher ratio) results in a higher WR. 

 

In simple words... your WR increases, your DR is also (very likely) increasing - yes. Increase your DR and your WR will improve... not proven, not obvious. 

In addition, - your survival rate and your DR would be more likely to match.


Edited by abrasol, 26 September 2017 - 03:05 PM.


CALVINJJ #10 Posted 26 September 2017 - 03:15 PM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 13905 battles
  • 2,607
  • Member since:
    09-23-2014

View Postabrasol, on 26 September 2017 - 10:56 PM, said:

 

No contradiction to what I said... but Correlation does not imply causation unless proven... My main point is anyway, that I do not believe that creating more damage (only and at any cost) will necessarily result into a higher WR. My stats do not confirm it either. My WR curve is slightly climbing BUT constant compared to my damage ratio, which was really low, then climbed steeper and joined surprisingly the WR level more recently and is constant and increasing slightly, like the WR. The periodic WR compared to my damage ratio, on the other hand - is not even remotely showing any similarity. Which is quite determinant, if one would assume that more damage (higher ratio) results in a higher WR. 

 

 

You can check my stats for tier 10 (Use filters)

https://www.blitzsta...r/asia/CALVINJJ

You will see my tanks with around 3k average damage have higher win rates than the other tier 10 tank that I have grind.

Probably you want to ask why my IS-7 can still stood at 60% wr, it's because I was leeching on unicums by platooning when I was a noob 

(Credits to both OP_Assassin and Katniss0414)

So true skills does derived from damaging enemies, surviving rate are also pretty important for your info.

Bear in mind that being a camper won't really gets high average damage, it has being considerate a lot of factors in order to get high average damage.

If you die easily you won't have high average damage,

if you didn't help your team to soak some of shots (or bounce some shots) your teammates will melt fast and you will be outgunned very quickly which result in lower avg dmg.

If you don't spots enemy, allies could have trouble to take shots in order to bring enemy into a weaker states so you may have hard time to killed one enemy.

If you don't know how to read the map on how the enemies' move plus where's their weaker part of force, you're unable to pump damage well.

There are actually much more than these, and these are not easy to be mastered.

 


Edited by CALVINJJ, 26 September 2017 - 03:16 PM.

Anger and emotion are strategically counterproductive. You must always stay calm and objective. -Robert Greene,the 48 laws of power-


abrasol #11 Posted 27 September 2017 - 01:07 AM

    Sergeant

  • Member
  • 7274 battles
  • 224
  • [AUC]
  • Member since:
    06-29-2017

View PostCALVINJJ, on 26 September 2017 - 10:15 PM, said:

 

You can check my stats for tier 10 (Use filters)

https://www.blitzsta...r/asia/CALVINJJ

You will see my tanks with around 3k average damage have higher win rates than the other tier 10 tank that I have grind.

Probably you want to ask why my IS-7 can still stood at 60% wr, it's because I was leeching on unicums by platooning when I was a noob 

(Credits to both OP_Assassin and Katniss0414)

So true skills does derived from damaging enemies, surviving rate are also pretty important for your info.

Bear in mind that being a camper won't really gets high average damage, it has being considerate a lot of factors in order to get high average damage.

If you die easily you won't have high average damage,

if you didn't help your team to soak some of shots (or bounce some shots) your teammates will melt fast and you will be outgunned very quickly which result in lower avg dmg.

If you don't spots enemy, allies could have trouble to take shots in order to bring enemy into a weaker states so you may have hard time to killed one enemy.

If you don't know how to read the map on how the enemies' move plus where's their weaker part of force, you're unable to pump damage well.

There are actually much more than these, and these are not easy to be mastered.

 

 

Of course it is more complex even if your damage rate reflects the win rate in most cases.... What I was saying is that improving your damage ratio is much more a side effect of becoming a better player, than actually and intentionally trying to improve your Damage ratio.

 

Even the best payers admit that they have loosing strikes on occasion. And be sure that during those, their damage ratio is suffering as well, no matter how hard they try to save or to manage their HP versus doing damage. 

 

Who has not had games (either good- or mediocre players like me) where you have been in a rather good team (but not too good), could do lots of damage and came out without a scratch? Sometimes you win games without being able to do much, either you unluckily get sniped, flanked, get into crossfire - taken out early without creating much damage (a miss and two ricochets and that was it for that game). And yet you (actually your team) wins the game. Such and similar occurrences has improved your WR, but your damage ratio suffers badly for sure, - and nothing you can do about it.

 

Grinding (stock tanks) will for obvious reasons also grind your damage ratio down, and probably your WR as well. But from my experience not accordingly. With some new tanks I sadly lost the first 5-10 games with others I won the first 5-10. But with neither stock tank I could achieve the best possible damage ratio, could I?

 

Still, in the long term, your DR will more or less  be in line with your WR. At the end my stats reflect that too - but only on the long term.

 

But if it is good advice (or even possible) to increase your DR, in order to improve your WR, that is another question. I am more inclined (sorry for repeating myself) to the idea that better game play improves your WR and that a better damage ratio is the result (or side effect) of it, not the cause.


Edited by abrasol, 27 September 2017 - 01:10 AM.


abrasol #12 Posted 27 September 2017 - 02:49 AM

    Sergeant

  • Member
  • 7274 battles
  • 224
  • [AUC]
  • Member since:
    06-29-2017

There is another thing I'd like to add in this context and that is TANK CHOICES.... which is always a hot topic.

 

Here I do take all the blame on myself, including my lack of skill... and to some extend my age (the simple fact that I am too old for this, either ironically speaking or actually).

I made two really bad (personal) choices in tanks and that was the Chaffee and the T34. While they are not just said to be good tanks, they also are statistically. 

But I simply could not take advantage of them, or not play them properly... however, guilty as charged! BUT I insisted with them, as I thought my results and WR would improve once I was learning how to play them. But I miserably failed... maybe, because I simply could not adopt to how they have to be played (best) or whatever. My WR thus suffered considerably because of this bad choice - especially showing in the stats of Tier V.

Not sure if I can give the recommendation in this regard, to NOT INSIST on tanks you may like or have chosen according to good stats or personal likes, if you are not able to play them. This might be an individual thing after all -  yet useful at some point in anyone's career. 

 

I hear some people saying now that it is not the bad tank choice, but my lack of skill. Hey! do not use what I have already admitted against me please. That would be ugly.

What I like to add (in the context of this topic), is that the right or wrong Tank Choice will matter much MORE for the average (yet improving) player than for the good or excellent player. And I am maybe more competent and entitled to pretend this, than any good player LOL 


Edited by abrasol, 27 September 2017 - 02:49 AM.


CALVINJJ #13 Posted 27 September 2017 - 12:00 PM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 13905 battles
  • 2,607
  • Member since:
    09-23-2014

View Postabrasol, on 27 September 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

 

Of course it is more complex even if your damage rate reflects the win rate in most cases.... What I was saying is that improving your damage ratio is much more a side effect of becoming a better player, than actually and intentionally trying to improve your Damage ratio.

 

Even the best payers admit that they have loosing strikes on occasion. And be sure that during those, their damage ratio is suffering as well, no matter how hard they try to save or to manage their HP versus doing damage. 

 

Who has not had games (either good- or mediocre players like me) where you have been in a rather good team (but not too good), could do lots of damage and came out without a scratch? Sometimes you win games without being able to do much, either you unluckily get sniped, flanked, get into crossfire - taken out early without creating much damage (a miss and two ricochets and that was it for that game). And yet you (actually your team) wins the game. Such and similar occurrences has improved your WR, but your damage ratio suffers badly for sure, - and nothing you can do about it.

 

Grinding (stock tanks) will for obvious reasons also grind your damage ratio down, and probably your WR as well. But from my experience not accordingly. With some new tanks I sadly lost the first 5-10 games with others I won the first 5-10. But with neither stock tank I could achieve the best possible damage ratio, could I?

 

Still, in the long term, your DR will more or less  be in line with your WR. At the end my stats reflect that too - but only on the long term.

 

But if it is good advice (or even possible) to increase your DR, in order to improve your WR, that is another question. I am more inclined (sorry for repeating myself) to the idea that better game play improves your WR and that a better damage ratio is the result (or side effect) of it, not the cause.

 

At least I have proven by become a decent player from a noob, damage ratio affected win rate and not that win rate affected damage ratio.

Win rate can be manipulated easily by platooning with super unicums player such as Hokey_Pokey where you can see him sometimes on forum.

True skills comes from damage ratio and average damage, because you can carry the game yourself rather than relying on super strong platoon mates.

Best player does try to improve their damage ratio and average damage, sometimes they do lost some but 'most' of the time they make it up.

But player that have reach certain level aren't really easy to get those 'unluckily get sniped, flanked, get into crossfire', as they know how to read maps well.

Those stock tank that you won 1st 5~10 was just purely luck (and I mean it), someone in your team carried a little more harder to cover up you and make up a win.

But seriously don't try to argue with me, at least I tried and it works out if I can maintain good damage ratio and average damage.

You should have tried to work out and try to be at least 1800 average damage in one of your tanks in tier 7 in order to see how does the win rates correlates it.

But the data can only be used after having 100 battles in it.

Spoiler

 


Anger and emotion are strategically counterproductive. You must always stay calm and objective. -Robert Greene,the 48 laws of power-


xXYolo_Noob_DriverXx #14 Posted 12 October 2017 - 12:24 PM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 17678 battles
  • 2,884
  • [ACT-1]
  • Member since:
    12-12-2013

If only I started russian line instead of japanese line..  My wr would be higher

 

And won some just by capping. Hughest one was tier viii/ix match. Had a good team covering me. Raiders medal


Edited by xXYolo_Noob_DriverXx, 12 October 2017 - 12:26 PM.

Only accepts plats. Those that need help in grinding or wants to do stupid stuff, invite me. other than that, dont.

 

Lores: IS-3D, Rudy, Angry Connor, E25, Fearless, Dragon, JgTg Snowstorm, Dedicated Warrior, Stalwart, Victory, Edel/Lupus/Nameless, Crombie, Independence, Shinobi, Matilda BP, Drac/Helsing, Tankenstein

 

 


GreenFace #15 Posted 10 November 2017 - 12:29 AM

    Sergeant

  • Member
  • 15127 battles
  • 148
  • [MOMFU]
  • Member since:
    12-04-2012

My clan mentors are always reminded me whenever I put too much care on WR. The key is KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid):

 

1. Inflicting damage more than get damaged (Damage ratio).

2. Ignore everything else (WR, people's curse, MM, idiot teammates, etc).

 

Everything's easier when you have cool, fun mentors, eh :D

 

Oh about correlation, I personally am not WR believer. To me, the only thing correlates with WR is player's luck of having better teammates than the enemies. I saw too many wins when I performed badly, and saw too many looses when I performed godly. Skill? Only skill of recognizing the best playing time to have good players beside us. That's all.

On the other hand, Damage Ratio correlates with many skills, such as decision making (when to fight, when to retreat), survivability (why trade shots, if we simply can shoot behind concealments and keeping our camo rating intact), etc.


Edited by GreenFace, 10 November 2017 - 12:54 AM.

[MOMFU] Enter The M.O.M

The Official M.O.M clan branch on Asia server

Join our M.O.Mradier here

As seen on Youtube Channel


Fidel_Dionesio #16 Posted 16 November 2017 - 05:23 AM

    Corporal

  • Member
  • 20314 battles
  • 20
  • [OO8]
  • Member since:
    03-31-2016

View Post____RON____, on 26 September 2017 - 07:21 AM, said:

Im a newbie by myself,but I can suggest one thing to get better stats,which is "Never start playing in a stock tank as soon as you buy it."

I generally wait for getting the equipments to be unlocked at first,then grind free XP in other tanks to upgrade the stock tank.Then play in it while the X2s are available with crew & xp boosters.I know its disgusting & boring to wait 15 to 20 days to play in a tier 8 tank,but its always irritating to play in a stock tank with 80 % crew,it just sux.

 

yeah absolutely right on that budy

Fidel_Dionesio #17 Posted 16 November 2017 - 05:36 AM

    Corporal

  • Member
  • 20314 battles
  • 20
  • [OO8]
  • Member since:
    03-31-2016
on my experience,, i started without any info about the game that's why i even reach the lowest winrate as low as 39% BUT after a thousand battles reaching tier six I learn a lot from those mistakes and finally i found out that upgrading and unlocking equipment of the tank is needed,,,, and now,,, i made it to even higher than 54% and my goal is to make it even higher if i can,,, my technique is,,,,,,,HELP YOUR TEAMMATES,,, CONCENTRATE ON THE ENEMY THAT HAS THE LOWEST HP, DONT BE TOO MUCH COWARD AND DONT RUSH WITHOUT THE SUPPORT OF YOUR TEAM, BE WATCHFUL AND SEE WHEN DOES YOUR ENEMY LANDED HIS OR HER SHOTS FOR YOU TO GET OUT AND HAVE A SHOT,,, KNOW THE CAPACITY OF YOUR TANK,,, DONT EVER ATTACK THE TANK THAT YOUR BULLET CAN'T DAMAGE,,, LEARN TO SAVE YOUR DYING TEAMMATE OR LEARN WHEN TO SACRIFICE A TEAM MATE,,, MANY MORE BUT TOO LONG TO DISCUSS     

Diamond114 #18 Posted 19 November 2017 - 04:31 AM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 15888 battles
  • 2,014
  • [408]
  • Member since:
    07-04-2014
Also avoid playing on weekends especially on new tanks or higher tiers

"Fight to fly, fly to fight, FIGHT TO WIN!" - U.S Navy Fighter Weapons School TOPGUN.

 

"Nothing is right in tactics. A good fighter pilot must be free to propose improvements to his tactics or he will get himself killed." - Cmdr. Randy "Duke" Cunningham, USN.

 

"To be a good fighter pilot, there's only one prime requisite; Think Fast, and Act Faster" - John Trevor Godfrey, 336 Sqn RAF


GreenFace #19 Posted 19 November 2017 - 03:43 PM

    Sergeant

  • Member
  • 15127 battles
  • 148
  • [MOMFU]
  • Member since:
    12-04-2012

View PostDiamond114, on 19 November 2017 - 11:31 AM, said:

Also avoid playing on weekends especially on new tanks or higher tiers

 

And holidays also...

 

*OP says, "dank, then when I can play safely, if I should avoid any weekends and holidays?" :D:D:D

 

Don't worry... Accept the fate, that like any other things in life, healthy logic and intelligence are a luxury that not had been given to all people :D


[MOMFU] Enter The M.O.M

The Official M.O.M clan branch on Asia server

Join our M.O.Mradier here

As seen on Youtube Channel


xXYolo_Noob_DriverXx #20 Posted 27 November 2017 - 04:08 PM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 17678 battles
  • 2,884
  • [ACT-1]
  • Member since:
    12-12-2013
Play KV2 during events and hplidays. So satisfying to see one shots every match. Even had a panther rant at me cause I ammoracked him with AP for fun. Mever face hug kv2 xD

Only accepts plats. Those that need help in grinding or wants to do stupid stuff, invite me. other than that, dont.

 

Lores: IS-3D, Rudy, Angry Connor, E25, Fearless, Dragon, JgTg Snowstorm, Dedicated Warrior, Stalwart, Victory, Edel/Lupus/Nameless, Crombie, Independence, Shinobi, Matilda BP, Drac/Helsing, Tankenstein

 

 





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users