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Jackson v Hellcat: Which is the better ladt ditch brawler?

Last-ditch brawling emergency

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Poll: Which is the better last-ditch brawler, M36 or M18? (22 members have cast votes)

Which is the better last-ditch brawler?

  1. M36 Jackson (8 votes [36.36%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 36.36%

  2. Voted M18 Hellcat (14 votes [63.64%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 63.64%

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_RB_33_ #1 Posted 23 July 2017 - 02:21 AM

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Since this topic hasn't been touched for a long time in this community, we might as well take a look again at these two reputable US turreted TDs and how they are in the current meta with all those lightmares and fantasy tanks running around... And for the benefit of newcomers who did their homework by reading up on what US Army turreted TD is supposed to do.

 

It is a given that these two were never meant to brawl, being snipers and second line support. However, given the relatively small map sizes in Blitz, it is short of inevitable that someone from the opfor will be able to get close to you and brawl you to kingdom come. And it is not always that we get to dictate the terms of the engagement.

 

Now, when that happens, which of the two would you think fare better? Please bear in mind that it is a cardinal rule among most Hellcat drivers to avoid brawling as much as possible and that if they ended up brawling, they have royally screwed up somewhere as today's Hellcat (being nerfed from its alleged OP status) is no longer the potent light tank with a big gun type that caused havoc a few years back... Whereas Jackson drivers must always consider brawling as a consistent possibility given their most often used position as second line support and on account of their relaitvely slower acceleration compared to the Hellcat and most lights and mediums.

 

Most of you who are somewhat familiar with me know that I lean towards the Jackson... So I would like to hear your thoughts. Keep it clean and fire away folks :)


Edited by _RB_33_, 23 July 2017 - 02:24 AM.


Diamond114 #2 Posted 23 July 2017 - 02:40 AM

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I've been driving the Hellcat a lot lately, and as the result my WR improved and my opinion of the thing also improved. However in this context I would still go with the Jackson, because the Hellcat's hull armor along with greater dispersion bloom when turning means it's more difficult to successfully survive a close range brawl, whereas Jackson seems to have the advantage of turret and transmission cover hardpoints to occasionally bounce shots with as well as having a slightly faster hull traverse and better dispersion bloom when turning. 


"Fight to fly, fly to fight, FIGHT TO WIN!" - U.S Navy Fighter Weapons School TOPGUN.

 

"Nothing is right in tactics. A good fighter pilot must be free to propose improvements to his tactics or he will get himself killed." - Cmdr. Randy "Duke" Cunningham, USN.

 

"To be a good fighter pilot, there's only one prime requisite; Think Fast, and Act Faster" - John Trevor Godfrey, 336 Sqn RAF


Diamond114 #3 Posted 23 July 2017 - 02:40 AM

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I really hate it when I'm brawling someone in a Hellcat and then out of nowhere a KV-2 ends me with his HE shell

"Fight to fly, fly to fight, FIGHT TO WIN!" - U.S Navy Fighter Weapons School TOPGUN.

 

"Nothing is right in tactics. A good fighter pilot must be free to propose improvements to his tactics or he will get himself killed." - Cmdr. Randy "Duke" Cunningham, USN.

 

"To be a good fighter pilot, there's only one prime requisite; Think Fast, and Act Faster" - John Trevor Godfrey, 336 Sqn RAF


_RB_33_ #4 Posted 23 July 2017 - 02:55 AM

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View PostDiamond114, on 23 July 2017 - 02:40 AM, said:

I've been driving the Hellcat a lot lately, and as the result my WR improved and my opinion of the thing also improved. However in this context I would still go with the Jackson, because the Hellcat's hull armor along with greater dispersion bloom when turning means it's more difficult to successfully survive a close range brawl, whereas Jackson seems to have the advantage of turret and transmission cover hardpoints to occasionally bounce shots with as well as having a slightly faster hull traverse and better dispersion bloom when turning. 

 

I'm with you on this. The Hellcat is a god-send if you and your team can somehow control the pace of the match. Wolfpacking with med tanks no doubt helps the Hellcat's options but by running around in relatively close support of meds also brings about an increase in chances that a Hellcat will end up in a brawl... Staying a bit further away from the pack for the purpose of firing safely from a distance opens up the possibility of being soloed by a marauding light tank that can rip you to pieces (I'm looking at you Leopard and MT-25).

 

The Jackson on the other hand... Do you remember the 1v1 encouter I told you about where the KV2 managed to shoot me point blank with an derp and I somehow barely lived to save the match for the team? Talk about being lucky :coin:



Diamond114 #5 Posted 23 July 2017 - 04:18 AM

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Yeah, I remember that match. A Hellcat in the same shoes would most certainly die in that shot.


"Fight to fly, fly to fight, FIGHT TO WIN!" - U.S Navy Fighter Weapons School TOPGUN.

 

"Nothing is right in tactics. A good fighter pilot must be free to propose improvements to his tactics or he will get himself killed." - Cmdr. Randy "Duke" Cunningham, USN.

 

"To be a good fighter pilot, there's only one prime requisite; Think Fast, and Act Faster" - John Trevor Godfrey, 336 Sqn RAF


_RB_33_ #6 Posted 23 July 2017 - 04:53 AM

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View PostDiamond114, on 23 July 2017 - 04:18 AM, said:

Yeah, I remember that match. A Hellcat in the same shoes would most certainly die in that shot.

 

 

That's the reason why I cannot let go of the Jackson. It makes those miracle bounces or survivals when you need them the most... At least from my experience... But really, I should have went up in smoke from that up-close and personal shot of the KV-2... I mean, my side was fully exposed to him with my turret facing him but for some reason, I managed to survive.

 

To be fair, the mark of a good Hellcat driver is that they manage to avoid brawling most of the time. And should they end up in a brawl and live or even prevail, it speaks of a either a very lucky Hellcat driver, a really really good one, or both.

 

The mark of a good Jackson driver on the other hand is being able to survive brawls long enough for help to arrive or even prevail in a brawl as their mentality is to always prepare, not look, for a brawl. I will never forget during my early days in Blitz where I was in a Hellcat, got ended up in Tier 8 match. I was already knocked out by an opfor IS-3 without being able to do damage when a teammate in Jackson showed up and practically tore the IS-3 a new one in exchange for getting damaged once and bouncing the IS-3's shot up-close.

 

I have since witnessed very good drivers (excluding myself) on either TD do magic in close quarters.



erwin10001 #7 Posted 23 July 2017 - 06:26 AM

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RB33, Wow your dedication to the Jackson and Hellcat is admirable :) 

I will have to try the Jackson sometime, and yes, I too will admit that occasionally, my shots surprisingly bounce off the Jackson's armor.....

 

one question - optics or camo? 

 

 


Edited by erwin10001, 23 July 2017 - 07:44 AM.


_RB_33_ #8 Posted 23 July 2017 - 07:49 AM

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View Posterwin10001, on 23 July 2017 - 06:26 AM, said:

RB33, Wow your dedication to the Jackson and Hellcat is admirable :) 

I will have to try the Jackson sometime, and yes, I too will admit that occasionally, my shots surprisingly bounce off the Jackson's armor.....

 

 

 

Thank you erwin :) many might think of my dedication to the Jackson and Hellcat as fanboyism. But at the very least I can honestly say that I am not a fanboy (borderline maybe lol) as I acknowledge that both TDs have glaring issues that need to be worked around on in order to be used effectively.

 

And honestly, the reason why these two are still in my garage is because they are special to me:

The Hellcat is the AFV that got me playing Blitz, my first love so to speak;

The Jackson is the tank where I made many of my firsts: first memorable M-Badge, first Ras medal to name a few), made me learn so much more about the game and ultimately pointed the way as to which playstyle and tank line that is most comfortable to me once I ventured out of tank destroyers... And I'm now grinding my way to the E50 :)

 

Your mileage may vary but I do hope that you enjoy your experience with the Jackson. It's an underrated gem due to the popularity of the Hellcat and most see it as nothing more than a stepping stone (which all tanks leading to Tier X are) instead of as a keeper. Besides, there's nothing more satisfying than taking a full derp shot from a KV-2 or any of the Russian boomboxes, surprising them (and yourself) by somehow surviving it then making some payback with interest while they're reloading. It doesn't happen all the time but when it does... ;)

 

To address your additional question, if I go Hellcat, I use camo. I usually go support mediums in a Hellcat so I have spotters to work with. If I use the Jackson, I use optics as the Jackson's camo rating is pretty much neglible as I usually go second line support for heavies as well as the additional view range would definitely help the heavies too.


Edited by _RB_33_, 23 July 2017 - 08:00 AM.


Diamond114 #9 Posted 23 July 2017 - 10:27 AM

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View Post_RB_33_, on 23 July 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

 

 

That's the reason why I cannot let go of the Jackson. It makes those miracle bounces or survivals when you need them the most... At least from my experience... But really, I should have went up in smoke from that up-close and personal shot of the KV-2... I mean, my side was fully exposed to him with my turret facing him but for some reason, I managed to survive.

 

To be fair, the mark of a good Hellcat driver is that they manage to avoid brawling most of the time. And should they end up in a brawl and live or even prevail, it speaks of a either a very lucky Hellcat driver, a really really good one, or both.

 

The mark of a good Jackson driver on the other hand is being able to survive brawls long enough for help to arrive or even prevail in a brawl as their mentality is to always prepare, not look, for a brawl. I will never forget during my early days in Blitz where I was in a Hellcat, got ended up in Tier 8 match. I was already knocked out by an opfor IS-3 without being able to do damage when a teammate in Jackson showed up and practically tore the IS-3 a new one in exchange for getting damaged once and bouncing the IS-3's shot up-close.

 

I have since witnessed very good drivers (excluding myself) on either TD do magic in close quarters.

 

Being a good Hellcat driver means being a sneaky bugger. Avoid brawling unless it is an injured opponent that you can finish quickly 1 on 1, use the mobility to relocate often. Have once won while solo against my own clan's platoon in Random Battle by being sneaky ambusher.


"Fight to fly, fly to fight, FIGHT TO WIN!" - U.S Navy Fighter Weapons School TOPGUN.

 

"Nothing is right in tactics. A good fighter pilot must be free to propose improvements to his tactics or he will get himself killed." - Cmdr. Randy "Duke" Cunningham, USN.

 

"To be a good fighter pilot, there's only one prime requisite; Think Fast, and Act Faster" - John Trevor Godfrey, 336 Sqn RAF


_RB_33_ #10 Posted 24 July 2017 - 04:11 AM

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View PostDiamond114, on 23 July 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

 

Being a good Hellcat driver means being a sneaky bugger. Avoid brawling unless it is an injured opponent that you can finish quickly 1 on 1, use the mobility to relocate often. Have once won while solo against my own clan's platoon in Random Battle by being sneaky ambusher.

 

Apart from being sneaky and maintaining situational awareness, what can you suggest to the average Hellcat driver out there if they ever find themselves in an unfavorable brawl i.e. a healthy opponent that they cannot finish quickly 1v1 and ambushing them to boot? 

Diamond114 #11 Posted 24 July 2017 - 09:00 AM

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If it's a KV-2 with derp gun or SU-152 with derp, bend over and grab your ankles because it's BOHICA time. Otherwise judge whether or not you can run, if it's a heavy or a TD then consider running away, if anything else spam help, pop adrenaline, don't forget to rotate your hull together with your turret, and fight like hell. That situation is quite literally the worst case scenario for Hellcat drivers, and unless they can somehow elude their aggressor I don't see much chance for Hellcats to survive that one honestly.

"Fight to fly, fly to fight, FIGHT TO WIN!" - U.S Navy Fighter Weapons School TOPGUN.

 

"Nothing is right in tactics. A good fighter pilot must be free to propose improvements to his tactics or he will get himself killed." - Cmdr. Randy "Duke" Cunningham, USN.

 

"To be a good fighter pilot, there's only one prime requisite; Think Fast, and Act Faster" - John Trevor Godfrey, 336 Sqn RAF


Diamond114 #12 Posted 24 July 2017 - 09:13 AM

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That said, I did win big in a match with Hellcat today, at Mayan Ruins Supremacy mode, with the enemy team having the light and medium tank numbers advantage. Start of game we rushed C, had initially signalled to go for A but the lights engage their driver maniac mode before their brain. Lucky for us, enemy lights didn't have much brain than our team either, their VK 28.01 took point and got hit first by our T37, I teamed up with our Flatpanzer and killed the SU-100 with 85mm gun, then I turned to help the T37. By this time all the enemy team were zerg rushing C, fortunately they didn't go up apart from a VK 36.01H. Killed the VK 28 at the cost of two hits from their 88s (one VK 36, one Kuro), I just shoot two more shots, one straight down the VK 36 mantlet which penned, and once more at the Kuro's side before pulling back to kill one of their fast movers which was OHK by that time, then went down hill attempting to help our T37 but I see the VK 36 about to pop up hill and T37 was doomed anyhow, so I went down, waited until VK 36 popped up then finished him as well. Meanwhile, our Kuro showed up and begin to engage their Kuro, but not before enemy Kuro put two more shots in total afterwards I think, reducing me to less than 100 HP by end of match. Then I just let the Kuros duel each other with me slamming a couple rounds up his back and securing the kill.

 

Total 2008 damage, 994 xp because Tier VI max game, 5 kills and a 1st Class badge.


"Fight to fly, fly to fight, FIGHT TO WIN!" - U.S Navy Fighter Weapons School TOPGUN.

 

"Nothing is right in tactics. A good fighter pilot must be free to propose improvements to his tactics or he will get himself killed." - Cmdr. Randy "Duke" Cunningham, USN.

 

"To be a good fighter pilot, there's only one prime requisite; Think Fast, and Act Faster" - John Trevor Godfrey, 336 Sqn RAF


Diamond114 #13 Posted 24 July 2017 - 09:14 AM

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That was a hell of an adrenaline rush I'll say

"Fight to fly, fly to fight, FIGHT TO WIN!" - U.S Navy Fighter Weapons School TOPGUN.

 

"Nothing is right in tactics. A good fighter pilot must be free to propose improvements to his tactics or he will get himself killed." - Cmdr. Randy "Duke" Cunningham, USN.

 

"To be a good fighter pilot, there's only one prime requisite; Think Fast, and Act Faster" - John Trevor Godfrey, 336 Sqn RAF


erwin10001 #14 Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:58 PM

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I was so inspired by this thread that I played more games of Hellcat and got the winrate to 59% with 250+ games.

 

The tank has only 4 out of 9 slots equipped. Maybe I'll equip up to 6 slots and try for 60%, its not going to be easy but I guess challenges are fun :)

 

 



_RB_33_ #15 Posted 25 July 2017 - 02:08 AM

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View PostDiamond114, on 24 July 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

That said, I did win big in a match with Hellcat today, at Mayan Ruins Supremacy mode, with the enemy team having the light and medium tank numbers advantage. Start of game we rushed C, had initially signalled to go for A but the lights engage their driver maniac mode before their brain. Lucky for us, enemy lights didn't have much brain than our team either, their VK 28.01 took point and got hit first by our T37, I teamed up with our Flatpanzer and killed the SU-100 with 85mm gun, then I turned to help the T37. By this time all the enemy team were zerg rushing C, fortunately they didn't go up apart from a VK 36.01H. Killed the VK 28 at the cost of two hits from their 88s (one VK 36, one Kuro), I just shoot two more shots, one straight down the VK 36 mantlet which penned, and once more at the Kuro's side before pulling back to kill one of their fast movers which was OHK by that time, then went down hill attempting to help our T37 but I see the VK 36 about to pop up hill and T37 was doomed anyhow, so I went down, waited until VK 36 popped up then finished him as well. Meanwhile, our Kuro showed up and begin to engage their Kuro, but not before enemy Kuro put two more shots in total afterwards I think, reducing me to less than 100 HP by end of match. Then I just let the Kuros duel each other with me slamming a couple rounds up his back and securing the kill.

 

Total 2008 damage, 994 xp because Tier VI max game, 5 kills and a 1st Class badge.

 

 

Judging by your account, you displayed something that most Hellcat drivers lack and what some veteran Hellcat drivers sometimes forget: the ability to make decisions; when to move, when to shoot, when to hold fire, etc. A fellow forumer mentioned this a long time ago, if I remember correctly, his name is Mel1337. He also put special emphasis on how important it is for a Hellcat driver to be able to make important decisions on the fly. As for the getting ambushed in Hellcat... Bro, you just made me cringe... The memory of a recent incident where I ended up face to face with the barrel of a SU152 derp after I rounded a corner in Himmelsdorf is still fresh in my mind lol

 

@erwin

The Hellcat may no longer be the allegedly OP feline from hell as its name implies but it sure is a blast when you get your rhythm (or dictate the engagement) early in the fight :)



Diamond114 #16 Posted 25 July 2017 - 03:29 AM

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View Post_RB_33_, on 25 July 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

 

 

Judging by your account, you displayed something that most Hellcat drivers lack and what some veteran Hellcat drivers sometimes forget: the ability to make decisions; when to move, when to shoot, when to hold fire, etc. A fellow forumer mentioned this a long time ago, if I remember correctly, his name is Mel1337. He also put special emphasis on how important it is for a Hellcat driver to be able to make important decisions on the fly. As for the getting ambushed in Hellcat... Bro, you just made me cringe... The memory of a recent incident where I ended up face to face with the barrel of a SU152 derp after I rounded a corner in Himmelsdorf is still fresh in my mind lol

 

@erwin

The Hellcat may no longer be the allegedly OP feline from hell as its name implies but it sure is a blast when you get your rhythm (or dictate the engagement) early in the fight :)

I was actually firing at every opportunity I get I spent half of my AP shell (20 AP, 10 APCR), and the VK 36.01 was focusing on our T37 dueling the Kuro and I get lucky with my damage rolls (one-shotted the VK 36 and T37, both had 203 health when I kill them). I guess all those time spent on higher tier LTs helped. There are cases with those that when you're on scouting position, well camo'd and haven't been spotted yet it is sometimes more advantageous to simply hold your fire and spot for your team, only opening fire on OHK targets that your team missed or when you see someone kept advancing despite being hammered and is about to proximity spot you, in the latter case fire back before he spots you and duck for dear life.


"Fight to fly, fly to fight, FIGHT TO WIN!" - U.S Navy Fighter Weapons School TOPGUN.

 

"Nothing is right in tactics. A good fighter pilot must be free to propose improvements to his tactics or he will get himself killed." - Cmdr. Randy "Duke" Cunningham, USN.

 

"To be a good fighter pilot, there's only one prime requisite; Think Fast, and Act Faster" - John Trevor Godfrey, 336 Sqn RAF


Diamond114 #17 Posted 25 July 2017 - 03:31 AM

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Also check my latest post on the SP I C weakest tenk thread, that is also the case in point IMO for playing the GD objective in Supremacy, which everyone whined about. Sure it's hard, but sometimes you just have to do it or lose.

"Fight to fly, fly to fight, FIGHT TO WIN!" - U.S Navy Fighter Weapons School TOPGUN.

 

"Nothing is right in tactics. A good fighter pilot must be free to propose improvements to his tactics or he will get himself killed." - Cmdr. Randy "Duke" Cunningham, USN.

 

"To be a good fighter pilot, there's only one prime requisite; Think Fast, and Act Faster" - John Trevor Godfrey, 336 Sqn RAF


Diamond114 #18 Posted 25 July 2017 - 03:33 AM

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By the way that made twice in the SP I C that I won the GD Supremacy because I play objectives, the first one I had to abandon our last surviving heavy to triple-cap them so we could get some point flowing. Won the match because enemy heavies were too busy trying to find me instead of trying to cap back, but did earn me a bit of flaming from the heavy I abandoned :(

"Fight to fly, fly to fight, FIGHT TO WIN!" - U.S Navy Fighter Weapons School TOPGUN.

 

"Nothing is right in tactics. A good fighter pilot must be free to propose improvements to his tactics or he will get himself killed." - Cmdr. Randy "Duke" Cunningham, USN.

 

"To be a good fighter pilot, there's only one prime requisite; Think Fast, and Act Faster" - John Trevor Godfrey, 336 Sqn RAF


Diamond114 #19 Posted 25 July 2017 - 03:36 AM

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Also regarding making decisions on the fly, all those time spent on combat flight sims also helped (yes Strike Fighters too). Fighter jockey instincts FTW.

"Fight to fly, fly to fight, FIGHT TO WIN!" - U.S Navy Fighter Weapons School TOPGUN.

 

"Nothing is right in tactics. A good fighter pilot must be free to propose improvements to his tactics or he will get himself killed." - Cmdr. Randy "Duke" Cunningham, USN.

 

"To be a good fighter pilot, there's only one prime requisite; Think Fast, and Act Faster" - John Trevor Godfrey, 336 Sqn RAF


sing2019 #20 Posted 25 July 2017 - 03:50 AM

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Hellcat is an HE magnet. I can even get 1-shotted by a KV-2 when there isn't even one in the battle.

 

 

I tend to drive into trouble with the Hellcat and have much better results with the Jackson.






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